Meagan 0:28

Today I am here with Sydney, who is the producer for the Her Time to Talk podcast and a very special guest that I'm honored and excited to speak with. Today's guest has a long and powerful rap sheet of accolades, accomplishments, and leadership roles spanning over five decades in both the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A plus advocacy space and corporate DI world. Is a trans elder and educator and a nationally recognized speaker whose work has left a lasting mark across industries and communities. A New York native. Angie retired as senior diversity and inclusion program specialist from Interpublic Group, a global communications company with over 90 agencies and nearly 60,000 employees. She holds the distinction of being the most senior employee in IPGs history to transition to female, and she did so while serving as the executive VP across multiple global firms in the advertising world. Beyond corporate leadership, Angie served on the LGBTQIA plus Advisory Board to the mayor of Yonkers, new York's third largest city, where she played a key role in securing a perfect equality score from the human rights campaign year after year. She was a World Pride ambassador for New York State, a recipient of the Michael Sabino Legacy Award, and was recently honored in a citywide proclamation declaring Angeline Polinsky day during pride in 2024. She's also a community historian, an ordained Episcopal church leader, a documentary narrator and a public educator whose work spans from city halls to museum galleries. And most remarkably, she stood at the Stonewall Uprising in 1969, witnessing firsthand a moment that would ignite a global movement. We are beyond honored and welcome Angelique to the show during what we know is an incredibly busy and emotionally charged pride month. Her voice carries the weight of history and the clarity of lived truth, and we're so grateful that she's here to talk with us today. Her voice carries the weight of history and the clarity of lived truth, and we're so grateful she's here with us today. So Angie, thank you so much for being here. How are you feeling coming into today's conversation?

Angie 2:53

Oh, I'm feeling great. This is something I enjoy doing. And I think it's important for a lot of people to hear, and those who don't wanna hear it, don't listen. Simple as that.

Meagan 3:04

Simple as that. We couldn't agree more. So we are very intentionally recording this during Pride month of 2025, and we're really curious to hear from you, what does Pride Month mean to you now at this stage in your life and your advocacy, especially given everything that's happening today, politically and culturally?

Angie 3:23

that's a really interesting question because I look back on the origins of Pride and originally back in the year after Stonewall, they did a march in New York City and they were trying to figure out what to name it, how to, how do you wrap this? So it was a celebration of this, but on the other hand. One of the people said maybe it's it's gay power. The word power was big in the seventies, as, black power, gay power, flower power. We had all that stuff. But, one of the organizers said, we don't have any power. But we have pride in who we are as people. And e everyone, no matter who they are, can have pride in something. It's not something that it's something you've accomplished. And it doesn't have to be this, it could be something else. So I'm always feeling good that we still continue to acknowledge and celebrate pride, if you will. And it's, changing all the time. We're in a difficult period right now where, not that we weren't in the sixties because they were violent and difficult and, so we've come full circle. Not quite as bad as it was back then, but we are there and we're getting there. And of course, to me this is simply a distraction from all the other stuff that Washington seems to want to do. I frame it that way. There's 2 million of us trans people out there. Based latest, polling Gallup just did a poll that talked about 9.3% of the US population is LGBTQ plus. That is a lot of people figuring 330 million people roughly in this country. That's a lot of people. It would be the second largest state if we were all living together. So that's a lot. And the other piece that's really good comforting to me as. As I see history evolving is in that same study, they looked at different age cohorts, and my generation, the baby boomers, the numbers were like 2.2%, 2.3%. 'cause a lot of us, unfortunately, aren't with us anymore. And some were having more difficulty. But Generation Z, those who are just in that beginning adulthood stage 23 point something percent identified as L-G-B-T-Q, what that tells me is the future is going to be really good. Because all these old people who, and I'm not including myself in that yet, who pre predisposed to throw us all under the bus because you're weird, you're crazy or whatever, your mental illness, blah, blah. They'll all be gone and the youngest generation will be taking over. So anybody who is in any kind of leadership position should recognize that, this is a temporary thing in my opinion. It's not as bad as it was in the sixties. It could get there, but so far it's not there yet. So I tend to be a little more optimistic than most.

Meagan 6:39

I think that's what we need right now, certainly is a voice of optimism and some perspective and the history of it all. And I think that data that you shared here of, if we put all this. Population together, we'd be the second largest state. I think that's a very significant point of data to put imagery together that really shows, we're not going anywhere. This is not a community that can be squashed. This is a community that has always been here and will always be here, and we're in a certain iteration of the fight, so to speak. But yeah that's a very powerful imagery you gave us.

Angie 7:14

I honestly do think that, again, I'm basically because of the industry that was a part of data was important. I always looked at data and when I see a positive trend, it's telling me the future's gonna be good. I won't be around. But for those in generation Z who will become my age, the world will be very different and different in a hopefully good way.

Meagan 7:39

Absolutely. Yeah. What would you say from your perspective, are some of the things that need to happen to continue to create that positive future that the data is forecasting here?

Angie 7:52

Stories telling our stories, being out there, being visible but not visible. I was never one of those let me hold up the banners and all that stuff. I was just out there doing something good for the greater community, not necessarily the LGBTQ plus community, but just being a part of the community. And I was on many different boards not having to do with L-G-B-T-Q. I was on the Landmarks Preservation board for the City of Yonkers for 10 years. We made a lot of progress. Landmarking properties spreading the love of history. I actually have a Facebook group dedicated to local history. I have 15,000 people in the group. I'm the only admin. So the idea is even some of the boards I was on when I was in that process of doing this transition, my board members, I was president of one of them and I said to the vice president I said I'm gonna be doing this transitional thing now. And she said to me, you know what? If anyone on this board has a problem with that, then they should resign because what you contribute is most important. It's not who you are, which I found that to be true. It's oh, by the way, I happen to be transgender. So what? I'm also a congressionally recognized historian. I'm also still part of board of trustees of a pretty prominent museum in New York. And so it's those kind of things that have nothing to do with, oh, by the way, and then you tell your story and then the story helps others to gee, if you succeeded that way, then maybe I can. Take some of those best practices, some of that case history that you're giving us and put that together with other people and create my own path forward. So that's how I see it.

Meagan 9:47

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's actually really a comforting thing to hear in a way, because a lot of, I know therapists at her time, and a lot of our clients are coming to us in sessions saying, I'm so upset about what I'm seeing happen in the world right now. And I'm just drowning in it. I don't know what my form of advocacy could be because there's just too many things that I could and I feel like I should be doing. And we try to. Look at it from the lens of we can't all be doing everything all the time, and you have to pick your form of advocacy and to hear you, describe you were just in it, you just lived your authentic life. I think it's what people are needing to hear right now too, is that they can just go forward and live their life. And they don't have to necessarily be elected into a position government or be on the streets protesting every day. You know that you can do those things if that's your form, but it doesn't have to be that There's a lot of ways to be in the advocacy space when things are happening that are disruptive in, in the world.

Sydney 10:52

Authenticity. Just being your authentic self is an act of resilience.

Angie 10:59

Yeah, that's true. That's very true. And you know I don't post negative stuff on my, any of social media because people just get turned right off. They don't want to hear that, and I don't blame them. There's enough negativity out there. What I try to do is pick the good stuff, the stuff that's positive, elevate that, even a running chronology in my own life. I have a 2-year-old grandson and it's a lot of fun when I get to see him and, all that stuff. It's celebrating the life you have and the friends you have. And the potential friends that you might have. And the good things, there's always gonna be bad things, so I tend to shy away from that.

Meagan 11:40

Yeah, that's such a good message to really lean into celebrating the good parts of life rather than letting those bad parts capsize you. I can see that optimism in you

Angie 11:49

it's just the way I am. And I know there's a lot I could be negative about, but I'm not going to go that route because to me, happiness is self-created. Happiness is the fountain of use. I just turned 70. I don't really look 70. And people don't perceive. View me as 70. They, I'm always a how old do you think I am? And don't answer the question, it's stuff like that. I, you just have to, you've gotta be positive, even if the environment is negative and, and that's the way you spread smiles and happiness,

Meagan 12:26

yeah. Thank you for that perspective. It's so needed to hear that right now. And you mentioned, in addition to this, one of your big forms of advocacy is storytelling and being willing to share your narrative with others as a way to enhance and uplift them. So I'm hoping we can maybe go kinda back to the beginning because you have lived through so many cultural chapters of queer history and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what shaped your early sense of self and identity.

Angie 12:53

Sure. It go, goes way back with me. I think it was around the age of four and a half, something like that. I came to the re realization that I was different because I didn't like to do the things that little boys did. I didn't like to get dirty and I didn't like to play in the mud and trucks and stuff. Even though I did it, it wasn't enjoyable. But what I used to do, this is crazy, but growing up in Brooklyn in a two family house, my grandparents were downstairs and they didn't go anywhere. They were retired. And so my mom would go to the store and, just tell him, oh, he's upstairs, whatever. And then, I would go into my mother's closet. She was little and so was I. My mother was five foot, five foot whatever, a hundred pounds. And I would put on her dress or her shoes and look at my, she had this full length mirror on the back of the closet door, and I would wear the stuff and I'm like, and it made me feel really good. And, there's no fetish, there's no fantasy, there's no hormones, there's nothing going. It's just your brain is telling you, you feel good in this with this, exterior. And that was the beginning of many years of feeling that and understanding more. 'cause in that was, I was for it in 1959. The word trans didn't even exist. We did, but it didn't exist. I. And, there were a few examples of people who did a sex change, but it was mostly, looked down upon and made fun of. And, and I also know that if I ever told my father who was a World War II, army combat veteran that, dad, I think I'm a girl, he would've we need to get you a doctor. So I never did. I just kept it inside, thinking I was weird and I went through so many years of that, but it gets stronger and stronger. As a teenager, Halloween was my favorite day because I could be Dolly Parton iteration of Dolly Parton. And it, it sounds weird and it sounds crazy, but the way I look at this stuff now is that I have a female brain. I may not have all the body parts but the brain is, encased in your body. And if you detach your spirit from the body, which hopefully happens when you're dead there's no body part to connect with. It's simply, who you think you are. And I think about that a lot too. What defines a female? Some would say yeah, you need to have, you need to be able to bear a child. What happens after menopause? Do you stop being a female? What happens if you're born sterile? Are you not a female? And then what about intersex people who have pieces and parts of both organs who may have XX chromosomes and certain organs and x, y, and another set of organs. What about them? One in 1600 births was the last statistic I saw. That's a lot of people, and so the notion that we just have male and female is not really correct. We have binary, male, female, but we have our brains telling us who we are. Forget the body. Our brains are telling us something different. And mine kept telling me, you are not what you appear to be. And and I'm not crazy. I don't have a mental disorder as some would say, I'm simply me. And then I use another statistic where there's 8 billion people on this planet and no two people are the same. There'll never be another you. There was never another you. That's an, an incredible miracle when you think about it. And so who's to say that I'm not who I think I am. It's like you are your own person, and I'm my own person. I see it in some children too. People say, oh, you're indoctrinating kids. Baloney. The kids know who they are. I knew who I was. I just couldn't express it, 'cause there were no books to take out of a library. There was no internet. There were no role models. There was nothing. So I just thought it was weird, what do you do? So as you go through life, this is, this was the challenge that I had. And I did the things that, typically you would do. I went to college, I did get married, couldn't have children, had biological children adopted two children who are now adults and are, dearest kids of mine. And so life cha, takes you through its own pathway. You do the best you can with each pathway. And that leads you to another chapter and another chapter. So I'm in this, later chapter, but you look back on it all and you say, yeah I would I have changed anything? No, because I wouldn't be who I was today if I had to change something. 'cause you change one dial, something else happens. There's a realization of who you are as a person. And I, it's difficult for people who don't live this to wrap their heads around it. 'cause they kept, I keep reading about mental disorders and all that stuff. No, it's not. It is who my brain and 2 million other brains out there saying who you are. And so that, that's my message to go through all the stages in life, but be who you are. That is the message. Don't fight it. Be who you are because, and the other thing is so important that if you, which I did for many years, repress who I was and worrying about who's gonna find out that I'm really this or that you're not living to your full potential 'cause you're spending too much time worrying about other people. Forget the other people. Just be yourself and it makes, it will make such a difference in your life. The rock was lifted when I finally said, I'm done. I'm going to be me. And then, you make whatever adjustments you want. Some people don't. I did. But they're minor, minor in the sense of, you can't change a body. You can change some aspects of biology, but your brain stays your spirit. Your soul is who you are. And that doesn't change. You can't fix that. You can't change it, you can't modify it. You can learn, but you'll always be who you are.

Meagan 19:34

This shared so many powerful things there. And I think one thing I wanna highlight and echo here is this, we see a lot of debate in a lot of argument about gender and gender identity versus sexuality and looking at the biology of it versus the, societal, language of the gender spectrum. But I think you're taking this to a higher level by really separating it from the body entirely, because there's a lot of arguments, scientifically that there is not just the gender binary, but the way that you're speaking of this as at a soul level of, you live with you all of the time, your soul potentially transcends, even after, our physical body has gone. And it's that deep level of awareness that you're speaking to here in terms of gender and really knowing yourself.

Angie 20:19

it's really a powerful thing. And it only comes after you think about it a lot. I also teach groups and, companies who are trying to be more accepting of different people. And I think one of the things is that whole lgbtqia a plus. Acronym, they call it the letters to, those who wanna like degrade stuff. Like how many more letters you got? The reality is, we have 8 billion people worth of letters. The key here is that when you break that acronym down, it really comes down to two things. It's who we are and who we love. That's it. It's so elementary. The who we are. Okay. Then the who we love. It's so easy. That's so powerful. It's so easy. And yeah. And yes it, there's a huge pyramid of that, and all kinds of buckets, which I hate. It's a continuum. I don't care what anybody says. It is a total continuum of everything. But that's humanity.

Meagan 21:25

I think a lot of people who maybe don't have anyone in the L-G-B-T-Q community in their lives that they know personally, they don't have the opportunity to really talk with and interact with anyone in that community. So they, get lost in the letter soup as you. Called it, and it's just very foreign. And foreign is sometimes scary. I'm curious in your own identity too, in the development over your childhood. You mentioned growing up, not really having even the language to internally process this, let alone the ability to talk about it with others. As more language was developed around this, even the words transgender how did that help empower you or, I guess push forward your identity?

Angie 22:10

the word, if you go back to history, the word transgender didn't really appear until the late 1960s and I was already, older at the time. It was expressed at the time as the drag queens. Even the word drag queen is a whole continuum of people. There are men who just enjoy theatrics. There are gay people who enjoy, theatrics, which are mostly men, but some women like the term gay. And so you had this whole spectrum of women performing and that was actually one of the things that started that was Theit mission point for Stonewall the uprising. Because in New York City at the time, and I think it was New York State as well, if you wore more than three articles of clothing of the opposite sex from your id, you could be arrested. And a lot of people were, and that's why Stonewall happened. Because they kept arresting the drag queens. up until 1966, if you were an openly gay person and the bartender in a bar knew you they legally could not serve you a drink. That was the law. So you sit there with all these repressive things going on, and the idea that the police at the time would actually try to draw out some, a gay person to arrest them in a bar, in know it was a horrible time. A lot of violence, so again, you have to live through the period to see it, to understand it. And then, I literally, I hung out on Christopher Street. I loved Christopher Street at the time. It was so cool. And it was June, it was summer that the school was out. And I used to hang around with a few friends, and we literally, it was late, really late at night, and we were just walking along and we stumbled on it. You didn't get an invitation to a riot, these are the things that, I go back to because they're so important. So the whole notion of gender and all of that it's a sense of self. I knew I was not a little boy. I didn't understand why, which is why I was expressing who I was putting on my mom's clothes. And, it wasn't a fetish, you can't have a fetish at 5 0 6. You just do because it makes you feel good. So as you move through it in life that thing gets stronger and stronger. And then, to the point where I. I, again, a long litany of, when I would travel for business, I had two suitcases, one little one. The dude and a giant one, because God forbid, we didn't know what we're gonna wear. We don't know where our mood is, and shoes and dress and, way it works. It was hysterical. And I used to say to people, oh yeah I'm I'm heading out to the West Coast because I'm gonna donate my clothing to some organization. No, it was both for me. You do all you have to do, but I, I just, I just encourage people to, just be who you are. Don't hide it. Don't, because the more you hide it the less productive you are and the unh that you are. And the minute you tell people you, you come out to people, if that's the right word. I gave a speech, the first one actually. They had asked me to tell my story. It was to the four A, the American Association of Advertising Agencies. They had a yearly luncheon for their multicultural program. It was like 600 people in their room, it was a in person live thing. I think it was 2014 or 15. And they contacted me and they said, could you tell your story? You're gonna be our inspirational speaker. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, why am I inspirational? Your story's really amazing. It is. I'm, I was like taken aback, like I didn't think that. At the end, my message was, it's never too late to be the real you. And I was, I said, I just turned 60 at the time and I'm still in the advertising business, which is really a young people's business. And and another, a month later, this young guy appearing person came to me and he's, you were the speaker, weren't you? I said, yeah. He said, you, you inspired me to come out to my friends and family, because you said it's never too late. And yeah, 20 something year old. And so I said, so what, how was their reaction? They all said they already knew. That he was gay. I'm like, okay. So what that means to me is that, the message resonates. It, it inspires people to just be themselves. And, this was a long time ago and I gotta believe that person is a happy, happier today than ever before. And a number of others, same kind of thing, happened at different stages in my life. So yeah, be out there, tell your story, do the right thing. If you don't wanna listen to it, don't listen.

Sydney 27:20

Have you always had this confident sense of your authentic self? And was that challenging for you? What was that process like of gaining that knowledge and understanding and love for yourself it sounds so that you were able to spread that message.

Angie 27:35

you hit the key word there. Confidence. It takes a lot to get the confidence. We don't, it's not an instant confident. 'cause I remember just the first time stepping out of a hotel room in San Francisco when I made the decision, I'm gonna live me, I'm going to be me. I was scared to death. I was gonna walk a few blocks, with a cute dress and heels to a bar that I knew was friendly to people like me. And I literally, the neighborhood was, eh, it's the Tenderloin in San Francisco. If San Francisco. It's a little dicey neighborhood, but cool. It just, it was a transgender epicenter, if you will. And I used to stay there when I was seeing my client, and they always used to say, why are you staying at this cheap flea bagg hotel? We put you up in a nice place. No, I wanna be here. I wanna be with my people. Anyway, the confidence it takes to walk outta that hotel room for the first bunch of times, I literally, I had an old flip phone, so I was pretending to talk to somebody as I'm walking, so I wouldn't have to hear. The, Hey baby, how this, the da. And I know I didn't look that good in the beginning, but the idea of confidence is critical and the only way you do it is to actually do it. Walk the walk, get out there, do it. And over time, I was comfortable. It's okay, I can do this. It's working for me. And then you build up the confidence to start telling people, and you get rejected by some. Yeah, I remember telling a really good friend and the person said, I can't have a friend like you. And I'm like, what do you mean I'm the same person? No. What would they say to me? I'm like, who cares about you? It's about me. It was, no, I can't have a friend like you. And that was it. Okay, fine. I tried a few times, give up. At the end of the day, you're gonna lose some, but you gain a lot more. And that was another piece of confidence. 'cause I was confident enough to say, all right, this is who I am. If you don't like me, bye. If you do like me, we can be friends or acquaintances or just, business, whatever. So I look at those kind of things and say, you need to develop confidence. It takes a while. It really does take time. However. Once you get there, there's no turning back because you've already gotten past it. You're unstoppable. That's it. And yeah, no journey is ever complete without somebody assaulting you, at least in the trans universe. At one point some guy hit me over the head with a beer bottle, didn't like the way I looked, and I wound up in the ER overnight, which was not good with staples in my head, because they didn't like me. Didn't like, whatever, so it's gonna happen. I was hoping it didn't, but it also woke me up that I'm not immortal. However lots of friends rushed to my side. And that was a good thing. So you never, without people who are supporters, and, I also say to people if you can do one thing, if you're not part of this community and it's fine, just be an ally, but be an active ally, not just support. Oh yeah, I support you. And then you'll do anything. Be a person who will literally stand up and say, Hey, don't do that. Hey, I support you and here's what I'm doing to support you. It makes a big difference, especially I. To all the members of, all the letters of the L-G-B-T-Q community. 'cause it's a, it is a community and it's under siege and we know that as it's always been it will get worse before it gets better. But we'll get there, as I mentioned with Generation Z, they're gonna, they're gonna bring us forward, confidence. You hit it right on the head. Confidence.

Sydney 31:35

Do you perhaps remember a turning point where you decided, or you found that confidence within yourself?

Angie 31:43

Yeah, actually I did. And it has to do with stories. I had a client in San Francisco that I used to go to quite frequently, and they were very family oriented companies, so nobody really wanted to go out to dinner or whatever, which was fine. And so I searched every city I traveled to. Where's the trends bar? Where's the place where I can hear stories, not pick people up? I had no interest in that, but it's I wanna hear your story. And I found this bar, it's no longer there, but it was called Divas in San Francisco. I still have probably 200 friends from there. And we're talking many years ago, and I would just talk to the girls. I'm like, tell me your story. What's your frame? Why do you feel this way? And yes, I came to the realization one night in a hotel room there that, all these stories that I've been listening to, they're my story. It's just a different framework. It's my same story. You know about internal, like your spirit, your soul, everything's driving you forward. You don't do this because you're some kind of nutcase. You do it because you're driven to do it. 'cause your brain is telling you what to do. And that was the turning point. One night in the hotel I was up at four in the morning. I broke into a deep sweat, sweat and I went into the bathroom and I looked at myself and I said, their story, my story, it's the story. So now you're a strategic planner, what are you gonna do about it? So I did what any strategic planner would do. I did a timeline and I said, okay, what do I need to do first? First of all, get rid of the mustache. 'cause that really doesn't look very feminine, and so then it's okay, most women have, not all, one of the signs of it my, in my head. Coming from that Dolly Parton Halloween thing I always did was the idea that deflecting from a face to a body, right? Because the first thing is the body. You don't know who they are. And particularly men will look at, like that first, right? And so they're not looking at your face, they're not even listening to your voice, but, okay check box, right? Okay. And again, you do what you feel is right. Some people don't wanna do anything, and that's fine. So I did, the check checkbox. Then I'm like, my voice was too deep. It still is a little on the deeper side, but I'm old, so there was a college nearby mercy Now University they have a speech and hearing department, and they offered a course for trans people to understand voice and how to modify it. Can't totally change it, but you can modify it. And of course, I made friends with all the professors. A lot of them are still there. And e every once in a while I substitute for their classes too, which is sweet. But the idea was, okay, what can I do with this voice to project a, image, more aligned with who I am. And so I spent two years part-time like going to different classes and understanding the how. You can change, you can modify, and they have very sensitive equipment. So the first day I was there they did this analysis of your voice, and then two years later finally, I said, okay, I think we're done as much as I can do. And the numbers were absolutely incredible. Totally changed. I went from I don't know Bronson and Death wish to, to this softer, but now ancient voice. So it you can do certain things to get more confidence, in, in whichever way you need to go. But those are the things you seek out. It's okay, how can I check this box off? You do this timeline thing and it finally got to the point okay I'm telling everybody, I, in my personal life now it's the business life. Now I have to do that part. And I was very concerned because my biggest client was in North Carolina. At the time, the home of the bathroom bills, not that everyone else doesn't have one now, but the idea that I didn't know how they would react. It turns out the reaction was amazingly great. They even threw me a party, which was sweet. And the people in the airport that I was there every week, they're like, Hey, you're looking good. So the idea that you think you're gonna have a problem in many cases you don't. The last piece is the, I waited so long to tell my mother, 'cause my mother, I just, I didn't wanna, I didn't know how she'd react. So I told her when she was 90 and I was 60. And, it was one of those situations where we were at a wedding. My nephew's wedding. And I didn't have everyone knew except she and I didn't have any email clothes left. 'cause I only kept one suit for giggles, in the closet, which of course didn't fit. And I said, I gotta do, I, so I took three, little black dresses and I, heels and whatever. And I said, I gotta tell her because I can't not do this. I have to do it so I went into her room and we were gonna have lunch. And I said, so how do I look ma? And she said, you look great, but you gotta cut your hair 'cause you look like a girl. And I'm like, ah, hold that thought. So then I went through this explanation and she goes, she's like listening. And she goes, okay. I'm like, what do you mean okay? I thought you'd have a heart attack. She goes no. Don't you understand. Are you happy? I'm like, yeah. So she's you have to understand the goal of a parent is to make sure their child is happy. Don't matter how old you are. So you're happy. I'm happy now. I'm hungry. Let's go to lunch. And that was the whole conversation. Except the one thing she brought up at lunch. She goes, I named you a male name. And she goes, that doesn't work for me. What do you want me to call you? Hence I said, Angelique because of angels. And I believe in 'em. And I put them to a lot of work with the years, the lesson learned from that was the people you fear the most sometimes turn out to be your greatest allies because you just, you are, you're predetermining what you think they're gonna react, but they don't react that way. And then sometimes your best friends turn out to be, not, so life is a strange thing.

Meagan 38:19

I have worked with a handful of clients who are in their, gender identity kind of exploration. Some of them are younger and they're able to pinpoint, as you said, you wrote out a timeline of, okay, I'm feeling this confidence, I'm feeling this need to take action and really become my authentic self fully. And I see the 0.1, two, three all the way through and they've been able to plan this all out, but are unable to even take the first step because they're paralyzed by this fear that I. They're gonna be attacked because they see so much violence on the news and on social media. And that is a reality. And I'm wondering you're saying here that sometimes, the people that you're most afraid of are actually gonna have a really wonderful, supportive response and sometimes not. But, I'm curious if you have anything to add to those people that are just paralyzed in that space of fear and unable to take that first step.

Angie 39:13

baby steps. Baby steps. You don't die the water when, it's just unfroze, this literally took me years to fig, to slowly move forward. It took me two years to find a plastic surgeon to do these just because I wanted the right person. And I wanted to make sure, because plastic surgery is an art. And you're, you have to be in it. And I found the most incredible plastic surgeon, and I did him three times. Big, bigger, biggest, and he retired. I dunno if it had to do with me, but but again, it's increments. With me, I had nobody to follow. I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew if I, these were the steps I wanted to do, slowly. If you take the little baby steps to the point you are ready, and then don't do it in a big, splashy way, just increments, find a safe space like I did in San Francisco. No one knew me. So I wasn't worried about that. And you're in a neighborhood where so eclectic, it didn't matter, and so those are the kind of things that you can try to make the space as safe as possible. And then if you have a problem, you run into a store and you call for assistance, you call, police or whatever. I have to say, even when I was assaulted that night the bar owner knew me and so did the bouncers in a good way. And they did get, the guy ultimately nothing really much happened. But the point was the two policemen didn't know me and they asked me, how are you okay? Blah, blah, blah, the usual stuff, and we're gonna call an ambulance. Which hospital? Yeah. Okay, fine. And can we just see your ID so we can make a record of it? And then they saw my ID, and the first thing they said was how may we address you? Because CID certainly didn't match this, and I didn't look anywhere near where I look today and talk about respect. And so yeah, Yonkers Police Department was ahead of their time and they still are. But still, the point is that, you just do baby steps and then confidence takes time. It really does. And you'll make a few mistakes too. Pull back, try something else, look at everyone else's stories. And there's lots of them out there. If my story doesn't work for you, there's probably a hundred, 200, a thousand more. That could be, and it doesn't have to be for this, it could be people who've overcome a handicap, people who have gone, done something that they have succeeded in. And maybe it's, it's not necessarily gender, things you can do to change things. It is a process. And the process isn't always the same, but the end goal is the same. Be yourself. And you'll be. You'll be much happier. That's the whole point. And I'm happy, which is reason why I don't think I look my age. Then share your story because someone else may be looking to figure out where to go, how to go next. As you say, your clients are, not sure they're uncomfortable, they're scared. That first big plunge, don't take a plunge. Take a little splash. And itty bitty on, itty bitty. And you get there.

Meagan 42:37

Yeah. That's such good advice. 'cause even small action steps towards this ultimate goal. It's taking action for yourself on a consistent basis. It's not keeping everything stuck and stagnant.

Angie 42:48

Yeah. The idea that you're moving forward, you're learning as you go. And you need to test and learn. Try something doesn't work. Try something else. And eventually you're still moving forward. Maybe a step backward here and there, but you're still moving forward. And so that's my advice. Slow, steady, slow, take a break, breathe. If you're uncomfortable. I've seen some people detransition, which I can't even imagine that, but because of fear. And fear, it's like either I'm gonna get killed or I better just revert back to what I was, but I'll be totally unhappy and miserable. That's not the way to do it. Move, go somewhere else. Change your environment. Change wherever you live, how you live. And I'll always say too, like the workplace can be a lifesaver. The companies who are accepting of talented employees who might be different may offer the one safe space that a person might have. So if your company's not supporting, find another one. There's always something you can do. As opposed to, yes, I have had some friends take their lives because the world hated them, they could not deal with it. And they were not like me, where I would give 'em the finger. People are fragile, some people, and I understand. Because sometimes you can't climb out of that box and you don't see a recourse. And, that's one another reason why I like to tell my own story. It's like there's always a way to move forward. Just don't fall into that trap that you're worthless. 'cause every human is incredibly useful in this world and has a purpose.

Meagan 44:39

Absolutely. The world is so much better off the more people that are living their authentic lives in whatever way they can.

Angie 44:46

I think about humanity as one giant puzzle with billions, a billion, 8 billion little puzzle pieces. So the minute one drops out, there's a hole. And that hole can't be really replaced. Especially if it's dropping out for cause as opposed to naturally, every life is important, and every life is valuable and you're here for a reason.

Meagan 45:12

I find it really interesting that you point at work as being a lifeline potentially as well. I think a unique part of your story is that you transition in this high level leadership position within a company. And it sounds like by and large, you had a lot of support within your company and, positive interactions throughout that process. But I'm curious if you can talk a little bit more about that and if there were any, challenges or stumbling blocks you had to navigate and how you did that to find that job that felt like a safe place.

Angie 45:41

Here's the thing. The company had different business resource groups one focused on L-G-B-T-Q Women's Group Asian group, et cetera. Again I was looking to see how I could move forward. And at one point the LGBT Q group had a void. There was no leader. Both of 'em had left and went to other companies. So it, there was zero. And I had been friends with the senior diversity and inclusion vice president for a while, and I called, or I emailed, I forget, and I said, I'd like to consider, I'd like to be considered to take over the group. And she wrote back to me. She goes. What, wait, what? So she took me to lunch and I was talking about it, talked about who I was, and I said, you, you see this shirt that's got a couple of lumps in it. And so I took over and I wrote that position to, four or five years. And we did a lot of great stuff. I even did the first trans panel they ever did with friends young and older and I didn't realize my two younger friends had never told their stories and they were in tears, people in the audience. It was a live audience of, I don't know, 60, 70 people, maybe more. And there was not a dry eye anywhere. And yes, I had stumbling blocks too. Not many, but not enough to stop me because once they took over that group, I was at corporate. This is not just one company. This is a corporate thing. And then I finally like, okay, now I have the backing of the corporation, and that empowered me to move forward. You look for these little diamonds and what can I grab onto to make this work? And that helped me in the whole transitional thing too. Even my own company, I was senior, I had a fairly big group of people that were focused on different accounts and I was the account management lead and we used to have these Monday morning status meetings, so there'd be like, 25 people in the room and we're going through it. And then I said I wanna tell you something about me again. I'm gonna be doing this, and blah, blah, blah. And I got a round of applause, which was sweet. And then I said if anyone has an issue, talk to your manager, which was me. And so little fun things. But a couple weeks later, my creative partner came into me and probably had the greatest wisdom I've ever encountered. And he said to me, you've been dealing with this transition thought for years, for decades, but it's all new to us. And, the team is just, they just don't quite understand. They don't know they're trying to figure it out. So understand that we're transitioning with you. Which was a powerful thought because most people, they only think of themselves, which I was like, I'm transitioning, so what? So is everyone around me? And once you come to that realization, it's wow, yes, of course. Breathe. Give them breathing room. If they have questions, ask the questions. And so those are the things that are really, insightful sometimes but yeah, it was not an easy thing. And some of the times when I give my talks to different companies, usually they call on the supplier that, that uses me. And usually what it is they have someone transitioning and they've never experienced it or they want to make sure it's done properly. So they'll get me to talk about the subject. That then creates the environment to make it easier for that person. And I usually wind up later on being contacted by the person. 'Cause it helped, you go through that litany and then it really does change the perspective moving forward. Home life may be toxic, anything outside the office might be toxic. But when you're in the office, if you're respected and your coworkers, respect and embrace you, it's great. You don't have to think about it too much. And hiding isn't a good option because you're thinking about that all the time. Once it's done, it's like the rock is off your back,

Meagan 50:03

yeah. It's freeing. Thank you for sharing that. That's so powerful to hear your experience and also the ways that you've now given back and helped other companies to do better in this space. Because, it's hard enough for women to climb the corporate ladder and be in these positions, let alone trans women going through this experience who need that much more understanding and support. I'm really inspired by how much you've persevered through the stumbling blocks as well as. Being able to use your confidence and the backing that you have been able to amass to support others in this community.

Sydney 50:34

I was curious just based on what you said what do you think some of the biggest misconceptions are about the Transfeminine experience specifically?

Angie 50:45

I'll talk trans in general because see I tend to be like I'm a woman, period. The brain tells me who I am. Forget about what the body says the brain tells me. I don't need an adjective. I don't need a modifier. I'm just a woman who is out there trying to be myself. The misconceptions are lots of stuff like. Oh, it's just an act. Oh, it's just a phase. Oh, they're grooming people and all that crap. Listen, I don't groom nobody. What I really would encourage some of these political folks who seem to have that thing, who probably never met one of us, talk to us. Because you're gonna learn something that may change your life. And I've noticed that sometimes someone in their family comes out and all of a sudden there's an understanding. But in lieu of that, talk to one of us. We're out there. I have no problem talking to somebody, and trying to convey what it's like, and how you feel. There are people who are members of the clergy who, keep saying It's only male, only female marriage is this marriage between men and women. Great. But there can be love, love is the common denominator of all religions and all traditions. If there's no love, it's not any of those. It's not a religion. It's simply not. Overarching all is just love, love yourself, love everyone around you. If you can't love them, then accept them. Simple. It's really simple stuff just talk to the people. These people who like, oh, you're mentally ill and you're this and that. No, we're not mentally ill. We know who we are, probably more than you do. And just because, if you wanna deflect on the issues of the time to, throw a marginalized group under the bus, whether it's trans people or whoever else, or immigrants gimme a break that's deflecting from, reality and deflecting from some other bad thing that you're trying to do, so yeah, talk, we'll talk. I believe me, I have no problem talking to anybody. I have nothing to lose by doing it because if I can even put a little shred of understanding or at least acceptance, it can make a big difference. I'm not gonna change the world but we can change one person at a time,

Meagan 53:19

Thank you for your work and for all that you've shared with us today. Anything that you haven't already shared with us that you wanna speak to. I wanna give an opportunity for that and hopefully you can leave us with some advice as therapists, as allies what can we do to help and to put more good out into the world and to support this community?

Angie 53:38

I think pearls of wisdom, at the end of the day, don't listen to the naysayers. Don't take it all to heart. I read so much of the crap that I, that, mental illness and all that garbage no, it's not just because you can't understand it, which I understand, it's difficult to understand, but you can accept that people are different, so there's a difference between understanding and acceptance. And I do think that, too many people are just hung up on, this whole notion of biology and this and that and, it's the same old story over and over again, but don't be disappointed there's always gonna be people in the world who are gonna, feel that somehow putting you down, builds them up, which is ridiculous. And then look at history. Everyone has a different advocacy. Mine is just being out there and doing good. I don't do the sign holding and flagwaving and all that stuff, although I do like to walk in the pride parade. It's never too late to be the real you as long as you're living and breathing. I've seen enough people in my family and other friends on the deathbed and dying and die in front of me. And I didn't wanna be that person, never having lived who I was, so sometimes that helps in the thought process. What if you got hit by a bus tomorrow? A lot of what ifs, but if you never have lived, that would be a greater tragedy then not. At least trying, so life is fragile. Life is is short. And the older we get, now that I've hit the seven dead digit, I realize that, and so it's even more important that we just focus sometimes because when we're happy we can make other people happy. It's hard not to. And then the last thing is, the greatest gift you can give, I love this expression, is your time because you'll never get it back. Lots of cliche type things, but it's the truth, and that's why I. Do things like this. 'cause I feel that it's important, that giving time to use my words or, thoughts or I won't call it advice, I'll just call it, best practice for me. I think, can be beneficial to people. Again, listen to their stories, connect them with other stories, connect them with resources. I had none when I was four. There was nothing. Zero, no books, no mentors, no out people, no nothing. But the world's changed and that's why I think lots of Gen Z and, gen X is understanding or are understanding more about themselves because there's information, it's all over the place. Some accurate, some not, you can distill what is clearly not, so

Meagan 56:44

I think your story I'm sure you've seen it already, has changed a lot of lives and I think it'll continue to. I actually love what you said about time, 'cause we can't get it back. So it is one of the greatest gifts and it's part of why I named the practice her time therapy because I recognize how valuable especially women's time really is with so much of the world trying to steal it away and take it for other things. So I wanna thank you again for spending this time with us and It was an absolute honor speaking with you today and getting to know you more.

Angie 57:13

Likewise. Thank you very much.

Sydney 57:15

Thank you.

57:16

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