0:04

Welcome to her time to Talk. I'm Megan Clark, a licensed professional counselor and the founder of Her Time Therapy, a group practice dedicated to supporting women's mental health. This podcast is for women by women, and is all about creating a safe place for our experiences, amplifying our voices, and empowering each other with the knowledge to improve our mental health.

Meagan 0:28

Hi everyone, and welcome back to her Time to Talk. I'm your host Megan Clark, founder of Her Time Therapy, where we specialize in helping women heal, grow, and reclaim their voices. Today's episode is one that feels personal and reflective. It's a conversation with one of our own therapists, Kimberly, about a chapter in her life that shaped not only her as a clinician, but as a woman learning to know and trust herself. Again. Before we dive in, I wanna start with a quote though shared with me recently by a client of mine, someone who I deeply admire and who has survived and courageously left a severely abusive relationship in her past. This quote, which is from the podcast called On Purpose by Jay Shetty, has promoted deep reflection and growth in my client, and I think it really speaks to and frames my conversation with Kimberly. The quote is this, if you don't know who you are and what you stand for, then you will live a life of absorbing other people's views. This quote deeply resonated with me as well because the work that we do as therapists at her time really centers on helping women reflect on their lives, what has happened to them and what they think about themselves and the world because of what's happened to them. As healing occurs, it creates space for women to really explore what they want and how to achieve it. When I sat down to talk with Kimberly about her past, her marriage, her divorce, and the process of rediscovering herself, it was clear that this idea echoed throughout her story, Kimberly opens up with so much honesty about the way that she thought and felt during the time she was dating and married to her ex. She reflects on how much of her decisions and her identity were shaped around other people's values. And how easy it is for women to lose themselves when we don't have a strong sense of who we are or what matters most to us. Kimberly's journey has made her a stronger therapist, a more grounded partner to her now fiance, and someone deeply committed to helping other women to have better relationships and live more authentic lives by getting to know themselves and their values First, if you've ever questioned your own worth in a relationship, felt like you were constantly bending things to make things work, or struggling to understand your needs versus someone else's expectations, this episode is for you. Let's dive into it. Hello Kimberly. Thank you so much for your time today and being willing to come on to the her Time to Talk podcast. I'm really excited to talk to you today and hear your story. Can you start off by introducing yourself and tell our listeners who you are and what you're here to talk about?

Kimberly 3:10

It's great to be here, Megan. Thank you so much for having me. I am here today to talk about my journey that not only led me to the woman that I somewhat have become today, but also why I pursued counseling and my path of development of self-love and also finding love in the world, I'm excited to be here today to talk about love and, resilience building in your own self and in relationships.

Meagan 3:41

Kimberly, can you tell us a bit about who you are and what your role is at her time and also why you wanted to come on the podcast today?

Kimberly 3:51

So I have really begun to focus more on the feminist side of counseling. Working with her time has really opened my eyes to the needs and the wants of women. And what I've found to be really awesome and beautiful is the connections I've made and the overall development of seeing where people want to be in their own lives. I really have believed that I. Women not putting themselves first sometimes is the reason why I am drawn to this career because I somewhat lost myself in a previous relationship. And I think it's just very important to know yourself and know the person you're with.

Meagan 4:37

I love that. It sounds like you're in really good company with a lot of other therapists who find themselves doing this work because they've gone through something that feels really emotionally challenging or monumental and changed the direction of their life, and I. You're wanting to lean into that and kinda help others through that sticky spot. And we've talked a bit about your focus therapeutically on relationships and working with other women through breakups and divorce and some challenging relationship related moments of life. And that's really what we're here to talk about today. Among other things is how do we. Maintain a good relationship with ourselves. How do we have resilience in relationships and heal from the more negative ones? So you're here to talk about that from a, clinical point of view. But what's more important I think, is your story as a person, as a woman yourself who has been through some challenging moments. So I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit more about. What you've been through and why you feel like it's important to, to share this story.

Kimberly 5:42

The road can get rocky out there. Particularly with love. I. And we can just invest ourselves into something when it feels incredible. And, a lot of our identity sometimes can go into a relationship, particularly romantic. While women are more giving naturally and it feels good to be this way oftentimes if the relationship doesn't end up working out or something happens where, there's arguing or it doesn't feel like. One partner is being as authentic or having their needs met as well. I feel like that creates a space where we really have to look inward. And so that was really me just time and again, looking at myself and questioning Do. Do I really know myself? Am I being true to myself in this relationship? And I think that, there's a space where we can become overwhelmed and neglected or, as women, particularly women, we can advocate for ourselves and let our voices be heard. And that's why I wanted to talk about more that other side of the advocation of our own selves and of our own voices. Because I lost myself and I've just learned that somewhat knowing myself more as I go through life, I've developed far more authentic relationships and I've been fortunate enough to find love in this pursuit. And so I almost feel like at its core it's really just learning and trusting yourself first. Because we just. To sometimes get, let that get lost when we're so excited about a new romance.

Meagan 7:24

I think so many of our listeners and certainly our clients at her time can really relate when you say that they feel like they've lost themselves in a relationship. I'm wondering if you can go a little bit deeper into when that felt the most present for you, and what was that relationship that you went through that has gotten you to this place, doing this work?

Kimberly 7:46

early on in my relationship with my ex-husband there were boundaries that I didn't know to set. I was a young woman in my early twenties and just went more with a feeling rather than making sure I maintained a sense of self. Which would've strengthened that relationship, I feel, but I just went with the wind and did what felt romantic and what felt like made sense, which inevitably bits and pieces of me were lost in the time that we dated. I did love this person, but I didn't, understand what love really was. I didn't really know myself to be able to deliver that in a relationship I did not really ensure respect or maintain a sense of individuality. So that relationship off the bat didn't really begin in a strong way

Meagan 8:44

okay. So you mentioned looking back, you just went on your feeling, but it didn't include a lot of introspection into who you are and what those feelings really meant.

Kimberly 8:54

Yeah, I think that status felt good and the way he looked, felt good, the way he smelled felt great. Our dates were fun. But then in the moments where, there was arguing and he says, oh, I can't find any person, X, Y, Z, and you hear these insulting things, but you blow it off, you blame yourself. And yeah, I think that if I'd listened to the woman inside of me a little bit better, if I had known her and that relationship had been stronger, maybe I wouldn't have put up with some of those things in the beginning that were outward red flags.

Meagan 9:28

So it sounds like looking back, you're thinking, okay, if I had a better relationship with myself, if I had learned how to tune into my own internal voice and the true sense of how I really feel right now, you might have been able to make better choices or maybe just different choices. And the relationships,

Kimberly 9:47

right? The sense of dignity and the sense of self was lost in the sense of I have a hot boyfriend that I'm really liking and I feel like the status is great, and I feel like there's so many things on paper that felt, oh yeah, X, Y, and z. But if someone can't make you feel loved, I think that was the element that definitely was not consistent from when we were just even dating. So if I had listened to that, almost that thread where, yeah, that's not being delivered, Kimberly, you're not getting this here. You're not getting this here, rather than the overall bubble that encompassed me that this feels right. I think that we sometimes just look past so many things, even the writing on the wall, because we're in the palace that we think is where we should be, but in reality, we're heartbroken and we're lonely.

Meagan 10:38

Yeah. You can definitely be lonely within a relationship. So what would you say to, women that maybe coming to see you during a counseling session that are, feeling okay, on paper my life is great. I have this really hot boyfriend, I'm in a relationship. Maybe I'm in school, or I have a decent job, maybe I can drive a nice car. Like even on the outside things are looking like life is going well, but they are still struggling. They're hurting. What would you tell them about how to analyze that situation? About what to do next? So it's, I think it's hard because even some very giving and loving people will have someone that on paper is even wrong.

Kimberly 11:19

So that's where even my heart goes out further, where there are these bleeding hearts that want. Love and deserve love, but my message, no matter if you're with the perfect relationship on paper or one that is seemingly pretty flawed love and the relationship should always enhance your life and not diminish it. And I somewhat, say to my friends that. Love should almost be like your music in your life or the color or that variety that just makes you so happy. You're singing in the shower because of it and it shouldn't be, this feeling that makes you just wanna hide away or that makes you not really know yourself anymore.

Meagan 12:00

Yeah, you really described that very eloquently and just beautiful there of what love actually should feel like. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey of realizing in your former relationship with your ex that, oh, I'm not actually getting this, staying in the shower feeling there's something off here. What was that process for you of reconnecting with that internal self and honoring the feeling that this is not right?

Kimberly 12:25

At first it was not easy. Even communicating to him that something was off. But I think the more I tried to communicate that or make changes trying to learn myself or balance these things, and the more it was shut down, the more I could see things clearly on my end, like, how can I keep pushing forward when someone won't even listen? And so that left me to communicate with myself. That space to give myself time to say, do I like being talked to That way did I like that door being slammed and not just being so caught up in the moment, but rather really identifying what I needed when he couldn't. That was, I think, a turning point for me just to say, I know that what I'm saying here isn't wrong, but why do I feel so bad about this

Meagan 13:17

So you took it as an opportunity when you tried to work on the relationship with your partner, and it sounds like he wasn't really participating in it, and that left you feeling very alone and isolated. And instead of staying in that feeling of just being alone and sad about it, you took it as an opportunity to ask yourself those questions of, does this feel good? Do I like this? Am I okay with this?

Kimberly 13:40

You almost want to stand up and say, wait, what about me? I'm half of this too. And so I just had never had a voice like that in dating or in relationships before where I had to say no when necessary. But also what about me when necessary? And this just felt like. Without guilt, I needed him to prioritize me and he could not do that without making me feel ashamed or that I was, speaking out or not being, a dignified wife by X, Y, Z, and I don't think. Anyone needs to be talked to that way. It made me want to say, I really need to prioritize my mental health and wellbeing because he's not doing that and he hasn't. He just consistently kept showing me that I was not gonna be the priority. And that was really heartbreaking and really a very sickening time where again and again, someone chooses, not chooses you, and that's that enough of, that makes you take a different stance on the relationship.

Meagan 14:42

Yeah, certainly that brings up a lot of pain and a lot of grief. The more real that gets, that they're not gonna choose to prioritize me and that is painful. We gotta sit with that for a while, but eventually you get to this point where, okay, you have a choice. We stay in that pain or you start prioritizing yourself. And I know even as a practitioner, you are passionate about the relationship that women have with ourselves. So what did that journey look like for you in the context of, getting a divorce and going through that process of. Building the positive relationship with you, even though you were going through this time of grieving and a lot of hurt.

Kimberly 15:21

Yeah, there was a lot of hurt and grieving and that's actually a great way of putting it where, it's just this prolonged feeling of not being met. I can identify this. And when there's that slow break process in something that felt so right. Then you're in a marriage and all of a sudden it feels almost like this 180. It really made me align with my values and my needs even beyond the marriage. I realized that the city I was in was somewhat holding me back. I. Even the profession, some of my closest friends of whom I still love, but it rocked me to a place where I said, if I'm gonna go ahead and rewrite my story, I'm gonna make sure that every piece that I at least am responsible for feels like something I have my footprint on. And my marriage I could be responsible for, but I felt it was totally out of control. I was just miserable and I didn't really know why. It was such a lack of understanding between two spouses. And so what it really, I think ultimately forced me to do was take action to stop juggling what I didn't like in my life and say I can actively, decide each little piece, even if incrementally it takes time. I can be the master of this destiny and say a little chip in the bucket every day to making me more me. Feels way better than staying in something like this where I don't feel like I even know myself or maybe even what my future holds anymore.

Meagan 16:58

I really admire the way that you said that around I get to rewrite my life. You get to be the narrative of your own story, and that's a really powerful way to think about it. When we're in a dark moments, when we realize we're not being prioritized in our relationship and things are feeling really hopeless. To just have that glimmer to remember. We can rewrite this narrative and we can change things. But it sometimes feels like we gotta blow up everything in order to rewrite them. And in some ways it seems like you're saying it doesn't have to be such a big blowout in order to rewrite the narrative of your life. You can take little steps every day and. Chipping away at it and building your relationship with yourself and reconstructing things one step at a time. Wondering what your thoughts are about how you did that. Looking back, I.

Kimberly 17:45

So that is absolutely the case, Megan. I think it's just really interesting, every day, those little baby steps, how they will add up to something, whether it's whatever direction you're doing that in, if it's a negative place or a positive place. And for a while there I almost felt paralyzed, just standing still, but. I would argue that even standing in a place like that was still progressing from where it was. So I think that when the numbness started wearing off and I started realizing that, okay, this starts from way within. My mistakes were, mostly from within. And really just saying, even if today I check in. And I do a little thing for me today. The world around me is still spinning, but even if I just do a little something where I feel this is moving me forward. Then that became more of a habit, and then it became more just a process of eliminating at a point where things weren't right, where it's okay, let's actively groom that and get that out of there. And as I felt more mentally healthy and more capable I realized that's where I started realizing people can alter their lives in special ways. Sometimes it just takes a boot to us to just say, man, I'm at my low point, or, I really don't get it because I was really scraping for a long time for a message or for a sign or for that epiphany that says, oh I've really figured it out today. It took me such a long time to even just move forward, but I felt like even just standing still at that point, I was like I'm not going backward. So I think it looks a lot different in some contexts, but it just felt so good to get to a place where I felt that I could manage the negativity a little bit better, where, it just doesn't overshadow anything in my life anymore.

Meagan 19:37

That's such a great point that progress doesn't always have to mean moving forward. Sometimes it can be just pausing the negative enough to look around and take an assessment and choose a response. we deal with this a lot with clients at her time, and it seems like this may have been part of your journey too, that women struggle a long time with the question of, should I go forward with getting a divorce or should I go forward with breaking up with this person or. Should I keep trying? Should I put in a little bit more effort? Should I do this thing different? And I'm wondering what was that turning point for you? Whether it was a sign or if it was just those little daily moments of you prioritizing yourself that got you to the point where it was clear. What made you feel comfortable making that decision? That yes, we're gonna get a divorce.

Kimberly 20:26

So there, were those controlling kind of warning signs before the marriage that I disregarded, which again, you can look at it in a lot of ways, being blinded by love or also saying people get better. I would say that his verbal abuse got far worse when we were married. To the point where I think it was beyond disregarding feelings. It was at a point where I didn't like myself some days after the way he spoke to me. And that excessive verbal violence was very hard for me to deal with. But the tipping point was actually when he showed a little bit of unkindness to our dog. That was when I realized he might be able to turn to me. And it was just a very interesting paradox where I was able to see something innocent, even though I was equally innocent, but I was able to see an innocent animal be hit pretty hard when he was under the influence of alcohol. And I just said, that could be me. And it, got really real for me in that moment.

Meagan 21:33

Wow, that's a really powerful moment. And you're right. It's interesting how sometimes it takes something external to us for us to get it. That, oh, this is just that one step over the line and it's a step too far, and it's what makes it click. we all have, that line is totally unique to all of us.

Kimberly 21:51

Exactly. It could be someone puts up a lot bigger of a fight than I did and has a lot more, involved in the marriage. I would say sadly, I was somewhat lucky in a way to have it end early enough where we did want to family plan and that never actually fell in the spectrum of our nine month marriage. So in this time, there was enough turmoil for me to see that I had chosen the wrong person. Though it felt right but it was wrong. And I was able to pick up some pretty major pieces that didn't involve anyone, but really mine and his pride. Nothing was gonna keep me with someone where I feared my own safety. And I think that's where it got to me, where I didn't wanna ignore my intuition and my gut feeling. And when you have already pushed that off for long enough. So for me, when that happened to our dog, Winnie, it was enough.

Meagan 22:46

Yeah. we've gotta actually have a good enough relationship with ourselves to even hear that message when it comes up that, okay, this is enough, this is that line. I think it's really easy to disconnect from our own selves, especially when we're in some really scary situations like that. If we use more of the therapy term, we could even call it like disassociating, where we just step out of our bodies for a minute and. In some cases that lets that perpetuate even longer than it, needs to go on. Maybe that relationship with ourselves is allowing ourselves to stay in our body long enough and often enough to realize when that line has been crossed. So that we can then make some choices.

Kimberly 23:24

Yeah. Just be true to that inner woman or that inner voice. Be true to that person that says, Hey, I, I need to take a rest. We're in overdrive and we're making decisions and argument after argument, there's no way to recharge and feel like this is, again, like that color, that music. I don't think that a loving relationship really should make us question our safety or, our own self-worth. And so that was where I think it was hard for me to look at it as less of a failure, but more as I really want it to be married. I really wanted that bond with someone and I made the wrong choice. But it's almost one of those things where people say, did you rush out of it? Did you rush out of it too quickly? I was asked by a priest in the church, and I responded with this sort of, when I knew there was that line of safety. And he so blatantly looked me in the face and said, when God sends us a message, and it was just. His own little weird way of, endorsing me. Even though the church ended up not enrolling our marriage, they ended up saying, you're gonna have to keep working through this and keep continuing on. And frankly it's continues to be a nightmare with the Catholic church. I deeply love that church, but in a weird way, I was supported and then not supported. I think that the people get caught up in the, oh, I'm married, or I'm in a relationship. I don't want it to end. But I think that it's looking really more about what else is out there for you that could be more positive or more fulfilling when this isn't part of your life anymore.

Meagan 25:01

Yeah, religion has a really interesting influence on relationships sometimes, especially marriage. At her time we have a whole department, I guess we could say around religious trauma. Because of how patriarchal most religious structures are, it can actually cause a lot of oppression and a lot of traumatic harm to women. So really keeping them in positions that feel very damaging and questioning themselves whether to leave or not. It's very complicated and it seems like even you had some mixed messages here Yeah. maybe God sent you that message and that was that line that was crossed. And yet there's also this expectation of, but keep trying.

Kimberly 25:41

Yeah, so it really messed with me a bit where I'm saying I'm protecting me, even maybe protecting my ex-husband. But the church sees that this is one thing just like society or our friends, or maybe even ourselves. We can't accept that it should end or that it's not healthy. Or maybe even that it has already ended. I hear sometimes of people that are in things where they know their partner is cheating on them. Love should be the place where we feel safe and comfortable and at home. And monogamy, non-monogamy, that kind of thing can be determined by a couple. But I just think it's so interesting when you hear one person, the chief complaint is the person steps out on me. My advice for anyone who going through that is that you can find very loyal people that won't. So I think there's like this duality to I wanna be loyal. I want this connection. I love them. But how much more loved could you feel if you were fulfilled in a way that you weren't presently?

Meagan 26:43

I'm hearing through all of this that you got so many mixed messages. 'cause you had, messages from friends and family, from the church, from probably your partner and even mixed messages coming up in yourself. What would you say was that resilience that kept you true to, yourself or to that one guiding force? Who did you know who to listen to in all this?

Kimberly 27:06

That was, the hardest part eliminating the static and even the static from media. What you think should be you. And again, I think it resorts back to that space and grace, giving yourself that time to say, I don't know what's going on right now. Maybe until I don't move forward or, I need someone to talk to or I want some advice. And those are the moments that let us know. Maybe, hey, there's a little bit of that alert going on, and maybe we just start listening to that inner voice and we journal or we just keep on checking in with that inner self. For the longest time I had no idea what I was doing. And I just knew, that when his name would come across my phone or I thought of maybe driving to his house to talk about things, I would physically get sick And I just decided, and as long as I felt sick that I wasn't gonna respond to him. And so that was almost like my little way I talked to my inner self. Is that alarm going off? Do I feel nauseous? It sadly ended up where that just continued and he actually filed papers on me and had papers served at my apartment. Just to be spiteful so I just said, alright, we're gonna go forward with this and. An uncontested divorce later really taught me, that it costs money to get a divorce, but I decided that safety for the both of us was the best. And I think at its core, freedom. I felt like a bird with its wings clipped. I couldn't even go to the zoo. I still can't, because I felt like those animals in this marriage, it made me so emotional, Tiger King made me so emotional because I was in this marriage and I felt like those tigers and I was like, this is not a normal connection to make with my husband. It was one of those things where I almost had to completely pull, myself away from everyone.

Meagan 28:58

Yeah, that's so powerful that there were all these random signals, even a TV show like that, which to the outside world seems just like a frivolous covid thing. But to you, it was this sign that my nervous system is telling me a message about this person, that I am not meant to stay in this relationship, that this person doesn't feel safe. And when it comes to cutting down the static, as you said. For a lot of women it has to Literally cut out the noise and stop all the influx of all the feedback from everyone else. But just taking that moment to breathe and say, what is my physical body telling me when I'm around this person when this person calls my phone? And for you it was that physical sickness and that's a really strong message that helped you maybe tap into who you are and the true you that you need to be listening to.

Kimberly 29:45

Almost like the grit. I didn't know I had, I found in that heartbreak. I had to reach so deep into me that I developed new roots that probably didn't exist before. but those roots are now incredibly unshakeable. I'm very proud of the woman I am, and if something that I'm not proud of, I'll work on that. That's no problem. But I would say, there are those rooted things that when I met my previous husband, I did not have not even close. I did not know myself like that. And so I think in the chaos. I decided I snapped the opposite way. I figured even if I go forward completely alone, I at least go forward knowing myself.

Meagan 30:27

So through one of the hardest, darkest times in your life, you still came to this moment of light and that you have a new level of strength and resolve and understanding of yourself.

Kimberly 30:36

And respect.

Meagan 30:38

Yeah, that's such a gift and really powerful and is real proof that we don't have to stay stuck in the worst part of everything. That we can go into something difficult, knowing that we can do hard things and we can actually come out stronger for them. As cliche as that sounds, it's real.

Kimberly 30:54

And even if you spend years scraping up your knees and falling down every time the time you get it right, that's when it's gonna make that worth it.

Meagan 31:03

I know listeners are gonna really be inspired by your story and. Just see where you're coming from because you are truly coming from not just the academic background and the qualifications to be a counselor, but you've really lived some of this stuff that you're gonna intend to help women overcome, and that's a really powerful position to be with. So thank you, Kimberly, for joining us today and be being willing to talk with me and share your story.

Kimberly 31:28

Thank you, Megan. This was so much fun. And it's an honor to work for her time and to empower women is just ultimate goal and ultimate joy for me. And I'm just very excited to have been able to come on and speak with you today. Thank you so much.

Meagan 31:43

Thank you.

31:46

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