Meagan 0:28

Janice, thank you so much for being here with us on her time to talk. I'm really excited to speak with you today about who you are as a clinician and disability affirming counseling.

Janice 0:39

Thank you so much. I'm super excited to be on the Her Time team and on this podcast today.

Meagan 0:45

As you mentioned, you are a part of the her Time team and we always love featuring our own clinicians, and you have a wealth of experience to share with us today. So let's just start out by telling our listeners who you are and what you do.

Janice 0:58

Sounds good. I'm Dr. Janice Moran. My clients, if they really wanna call me doctor, they just call me Dr. Janice. I'm a licensed professional counselor, supervisor, licensed in Texas, Colorado, and Utah. I am totally blind and have been blind since birth. I. Started in a different field. I was in the vocational rehab world, helping, kids and families, work through the school system, move into college prep or the workforce, and really helped counsel the family members as well as the kiddos on adjustment to blindness. But there was a lot to do with the parents and, finding out the diagnosis and all the sort of chronic sorrow that comes with that. I'm an advocate at heart and I feel like counseling is a prime way, even though it's more behind the scenes of advocacy work because it helps teach people to be their own self-advocate and helping them to find their voice and use their own words to speak out for what they need. I have always been. Intrigued by counseling and psychology. I was that kid that everybody came to and, told about their problems I've always been excited to learn more about the brain and the mind and all the neuroscience stuff. I also wanted to be in this field because counseling is, part of storytelling. I love how stories shape lives and looking at, the meanings that we make of things as humans. we're rational creatures and we'll make meaning out of anything. how that shapes our own story and how even though we can't rewrite the past, we can reshape what we take from that and what meaning we make from whatever experience, we've had. I see it as a way for me to. Pay it forward in a few ways. Being someone in the blind community, I've had fantastic mentors teachers and, guides along the way, and I want to give back as a thank you pay it forward to people who need someone who gets it, and can help them navigate those waters of adjustment to disability. And also sort of bringing in the new generation, of counselors so they start off on a good foot, and feel like they have their feet under 'em from the get go.

Meagan 3:22

There's so many wonderful things you said there that I would love to dive deeper But just to summarize one of the big things you said that stood out to me is that at the end of the day, counseling is about teaching our clients how to advocate for themselves no matter what problem they're facing. And ultimately that is such a key skill to know how to do in order to have agency in writing our story and having influence over what happens in our lives. we're leaning a lot into talking today about disability affirming counseling, and this is clearly one of your specialty areas, personally and professionally. Yeah. but I also wanna invite you to share, a little bit more broadly if there's any other specialty areas you lean into as a counselor.

Janice 4:04

Yeah, so right now I don't really have a whole lot of clients who identify as blind or visually impaired. a lot of the clients I see right now are women in over-functioning roles where they take on a lot of the emotional, mental, and even physical load of relationships. as well as people who've experienced religious trauma. I really love working with clients who have OCD and other anxiety disorders, and I'm trained in EMDR to help clients work through, unresolved trauma. And that's more about turning down the volume on the trauma. we can't get rid of the anxiety, but we can turn the volume down so that it's easier for us to tune things out so that we can get on with our lives.

Meagan 4:54

Yeah. That's, that's a critical part. In a lot of cases. So you specialize in a lot of areas. you help,, the blind community and people struggling with disability at various kinds, but I also heard in there that you really specialize in supporting women going through burnout. Oh, yes. Recovering from trauma, religious trauma, narcissistic abuse. Yes.

Janice 5:15

I kind of stumbled into it and found out that I loved helping women who have been dealing with gaslighting and, sometimes narcissistic abuse or narcissistic tendencies from their partners. And I think that's just such an underserved area.

Meagan 5:32

You mentioned you stumbled into that piece. Can you say more about that?

Janice 5:35

Well,, as a therapist, sometimes as we're working, clients show up unbeknownst to themselves and unbeknownst to us with a theme. Right. it could last a couple weeks or a few months where everybody's coming in with the same thing or something similar. Mm-hmm. that's what happened. I was working, with an EAP program and about five or six women in a row came to me from the EAP program, employee assistance program, with relationship issues and really feeling like they couldn't fix things. They were the problems they couldn't fix themselves. Which, you know, that's one to unpack more often than not, these were women that had been in these really long term relationships and got so used to. The quote unquote normal of how they were being treated. the lack of empathy, the lack of emotion, how the goalposts kept moving and moving So that really led me to take a deeper dive in to narcissism as sort of the umbrella for it all to be able to spot it as well as to help these women move through those relationships and make an informed decision on what they wanna do. nine times outta 10, they do end up leaving. I see the writing on the wall and the clients will say, oh no, I really think if we try this, this, and this, it'll change. I really want you to prove me wrong and no one's proved me wrong yet,

Meagan 7:08

I love how you pointed out that as therapists, we sometimes meet with clients, day after day, week after week, and we see these patterns come up. And that's one of the big things that has spawned the creation of her time therapy, our practice. really leaning into specializing in women's mental health because of those patterns of, no matter what our clients have going on, so many of them are wearing so many hats that they're chronically burned out, they're in. Bad relationships where they don't have the ability to ask for what they want, let alone receive it. These are things that are common across all of our clientele. But in addition to that, they may also be dealing with a disability or a chronic illness or a cancer diagnosis. Or a job loss or some other major thing that is just piling on top of this consistent pattern of issues that fall under that women's issues label. And I think that's why it's so hard for women to find the right therapist and the right mental health care. you have to get that women's issue pattern and whatever additional big thing is on top of that. Clients rarely come in with just one presenting issue. can you take a moment and speak a little bit more to your educational background and your training that helped you gathered all the skills necessary to help people through these really complex situations?

Janice 8:27

when I was an undergrad, I thought I was going to be, some sort of advocate in government or for the un. my major was political science and my minor was women's studies it was through women's studies that I started joining social justice groups on campus and in my community, feminist groups, advocacy groups like that. Right after undergrad, I decided to get my master's in Women Multicultural and Gender Studies from Texas Women's University. that program is very much, women of color centric, L-G-B-T-Q centric. So we learned a lot about, the concept of the ideology of whiteness and white privilege. And it was, for me, the first opportunity in an academic setting, that I really got to talk about what it's like systemically to be someone who is blind, to be someone who has a disability in a marginalized group. And a woman, but with some forms of privilege as well, just because I'm white, but then not because I don't fit the mold. so through that I was able to write my thesis on how epistemological and ideological and hegemonic whiteness perpetuates ableism, through physical settings, through, emotional, all the things. after that, I started working for the state of Texas in the Division for Blind Services. I started out as a rehabilitation teacher where I taught a lot of life skills especially to, people who had lost vision later. The mere thought of making a sandwich freaked people out, because blindness is, unfortunately, in Western society, feared worse than death. So there's a lot of stigma around it, a lot of, misconception and people just don't know what to do. They don't know how they're gonna live their lives. And so for me, that was really important to come in and be able to go to their homes and help them learn or relearn a lot of the skills so that they could do them in a non-visual way and feel successful and accomplish so they could start, getting ready for an employment lifestyle. And from there I became a transition counselor working with, middle high school and college students, going to their individualized education plan meetings, as a liaison with the school districts. I really loved working with the schools and being able to go into my kids' classes and observe, all kinds of cool stuff. And little bit later on I sort of took on this half and half role because there weren't enough people to build jobs. And I was a transition counselor as well as a blind children specialist. So I got to work with the littles and their families. a lot of these kids, were more medically fragile vision impairment was what brought them in our door, but their needs were a lot more severe and the bulk didn't always have to do with vision. but that's how we could sign them up and help them. it was just so interesting to see, a lot of. Our problems or struggles that we might have when you go to someone's house and you're observing the mom and the physical therapist trying to get this like eight, 9-year-old boy to just roll a ball. It just puts a whole lot of things into perspective. and that really pushed me to become, a licensed professional counselor. the program that I, was in for my rehab counseling was dual track. So I got my LPC along with it. the reason I wanted to do my doctorate in family therapy was recognizing, how we have a gap in our state services. That does not have time or room to take into account the family systems in a way that really reduces the repetition or as in criminal justice terms, recidivism, people coming back on the caseloads over and over and over, meaning new services when they lose more vision. Because when they get all this training or when they were sent to our residential center in Austin for intensive training where they, stayed there for a few months, they come home back to the same patterns, the same environment. the roles were not redefined before they went home. so it stood to reason that, they're gonna go back to their ways of doing things if you don't use it, you lose it sort of thing. And then they come back to us. So I really found my. calling in a systemic way of looking at patterns, second order change, meaning the patterns have to change before the behaviors change. something my clients hear me say all the time, and I always tell 'em, you're gonna get sick of me saying this, but everything flows from the inside out. So if you don't change the very core of the inside of what's going on, you're gonna have a rough time, letting that flow and change to the outside.

Meagan 13:39

that was such a profound message that you're absolutely right. Everything does start inside and flows externally to that. and that is the space that we have the privilege of working with people in, of what's happening inside. and how do we work with that instead of against it? I wanna highlight something you said a moment ago with working, with people who were newly blind, this is something that is feared worse than death for so many. That makes a lot of sense and it's a profound statement. recognizing that as someone who was born blind and has had the privilege to professionally and personally work with people adapting to this, I'm curious how it has changed your perspective of mental health and your worldview knowing that you have this experience of being born blind and learning your whole life, how to adjust that inner world, And seeing the struggles people have with a sudden illness or disability How has that changed your view of mental health?

Janice 14:35

I don't know if it changed my view, being entrenched with it all of my life and meeting people even, before I was in the professional setting that dealt with, drastic changes in vision loss over time. it just, Enhances the need for mental health and social arenas to not even just let disability be in the narrative, but bring it to the forefront of the narrative any of us can be somehow disabled. At any time. and so if we're not talking about these things, if we're not actually learning, busting the myths and, bringing in the facts, then yeah, we don't know what to do when stuff happens and life gives us this curve ball. but one of the things I did learn in my professional setting is I was aware that, when someone loses their vision later, it's a different kind of adjustment. But I came in sort of with my, like, Hey, I've been blind. I've been doing this forever, and it doesn't stop me. And, it's all okay, or, it's not okay right now, but we're gonna do this and just being able to take that step back and be like, you know what? Let these people grieve. Be the person that comes in their house. 'cause I was a field counselor at the time, or their school or their place of employment and say, Hey, yes, I'm blind and I get it. And yet if you wanna yell at blindness for a while, that's not gonna offend me. And be the one that will sit there and listen and help them through that grief. 'cause the patterns have to change first. Sometimes that means, getting a little bit of an accomplishment to give yourself a boost. But ultimately it comes in the form of having to work through those feelings, being allowed to be upset, being allowed to be sad, being allowed to mourn the life that you thought, or the pun intended vision you thought your life would have. And then figuring out how to pick up the pieces. And that's what I became. The one that would be there with them as the pieces continued to shatter. But then I gave them back their hope and faith when they were ready to hold onto it again.

Meagan 16:57

that's absolutely beautiful. And for anyone listening who's a potential client or even someone who's listening, that's also a therapist. I think what you're describing here is the hallmark of a really great therapeutic dynamic. You creating space to grieve, to validate that the client has the right to be sad and mad and all variety of emotions about their situation before we get to the problem solving phase. Yeah. We can't just jump over that space of grief and anger and get right to solutions. That is so important. bringing it back to our topic of, disability affirming counseling, you made a really important statement that disability is the one thing that doesn't discriminate and it can happen to anyone at any time. So, with that in mind, I'm wondering what does it mean to you to really practice, in a disability affirming way? Not just in terms of accessibility, but in terms of worldview?

Janice 17:51

Yeah. what I'm gonna say first is gonna sound like it's common sense, and yet there are times when maybe it's not. But the biggest one is don't assume. If you don't know, ask my very first therapist as an adult, before we even got into why was I here today? She just launched into this thing about like, well, I can only imagine that you were isolated and you were really bullied a lot and you probably didn't have many friends, I just kind of got up and left. That is not why I was there and why I was there. Had nothing to do with my blindness. I was a new counselor and was in supervision, all that stuff. But the imposter syndrome was real and it was big, and that's what I wanted to talk to her about and her bringing that back to my blindness and writing a narrative for me that again, goes along with the myths of blindness being so bad. I did not have the advocacy bone in that moment. So I just said, I'd like to have a chat with you, but right now is not the time and we're gonna need to cut this session short and I'll give you a phone call. about a week later I called her and we had a really nice chat she apologized and I didn't go back to her for therapy, but I really feel like she made some big leaps in her own journey as a therapist. And I feel good about that. Don't assume, do your cultural competence thing with disabilities as well. do some research because, with any marginalized group, it's not our job to educate you, but we are happy, most of us to engage in a thoughtful dialogue if you've got, questions. For me, I'm an open book. I don't mind the questions. if they're asked in such a way that assumes, for example, when I was doing my women's studies program, one of my classmates asked my spouse do you pick out her clothes? And it really hurt my feelings. not that they ask that question, it's just the way that you ask it. You can ask the same kind of thing in different ways that, spins the narrative more to a positive of, competence and skill toward the person who can't see.

Meagan 20:17

Yeah, that's a great example of a question that can come across as a simple curiosity, but is really quite hurtful. And I'm wondering how that question could have been reframed in a way that wouldn't have felt that way to you.

Janice 20:31

Yeah. for example, just saying, look, I am curious. I'm just wanting to know how do people who are blind pick out your clothes? what is that process like for you And then if somebody were to pick them out, I could bring that in. it's this person centered way of asking the question that I like to think of, as client centered in therapy giving the benefit of the doubt. They already have these answers. And if they don't asking in the way, like, Well, do you think of trying this where maybe they have it and they're shamed because they, you know, I should have known, I should have known how to do that. But asking in such a way that says something like, in your opinion, what would it be like to normalize therapy, for example? I would ask a supervisee instead of how do you normalize therapy for your clients, because they might not, especially if they're newer.

Meagan 21:28

These are such great examples of personal experiences that you've had that I think give a lot of permission and awareness to potential clients who are dealing with blindness or visual impairment or a similar disability to come in and seek therapy for. This very thing where yes, this person asked me this question and it hurt the way they were asking it and I'm frustrated by it. And that can be a subject of therapy, but also, you gave that example of going to your therapist for a topic, nothing to do with a disability. So, it's a good reminder for therapists to not assume, and also for clients to know that you don't have to focus on a disability or talk about it at all. You can go to therapy for something separate.

Janice 22:11

exactly. And so treating someone with a disability as you would any client, there are some considerations you might need to ask somebody, especially, if they can't see or if there's something else. if they're using a wheelchair, could you please tell me what's the best way to, give you directions to the office is there anything I can do, for example, wait outside the door and then we get to say yes or no.

Meagan 22:40

giving options is really helpful.

Janice 22:42

Or even if you don't know what the options are, just being okay saying, this is my first client in this situation and I encourage you to let me know how I can best help you if you need any help.

Meagan 22:57

I think a lot of therapists would feel afraid to say that you're my first client who is blind because it shows this. Perceived lack of experience or knowledge. it's so important that they are brave enough to let that vulnerability come through.

Janice 23:13

we know as blind people that we're probably the first person that most of the people we meet have interacted with who are blind. So that's nothing new for us. we're usually the token. And I say that in a tongue in cheek way, but we're a lot of the firsts. while stereotyping is never, helpful, it's important for us as people who are blind, people with disabilities, to present ourselves in a way that, helps not encourage or reinforce some of the myths that are out there. It doesn't mean we're all the same. It doesn't mean that, if somebody chooses to use a cane and another chooses to use a guide dog and another asks for your elbow that any one of those people is less independent than the other. It's not less than, it's just different. Because it's still an advocacy move to say, Hey, may I take your elbow? Can we go side a guide? Can I teach you how to walk with me? the other thing I wanted to say for therapists, if you have someone who's coming to your office and they let you know that they are visually impaired and maybe you wanna give them directions, try to think about directions in a different way. Because over here, three feet to the left, that way, those don't work for us. But if you can say, okay, you're gonna walk in the door and you're gonna walk across some carpet, and then when the carpet turns to tile, turn right. and you're gonna hear a water fountain on your left and there's gonna be a stairway to your right. If you go past the stairway, we're in the third door down.

Meagan 24:53

So a lot of sensory landmarks.

Janice 24:55

Yes. Textures sounds, and of course sounds can change. So those are more clues than landmarks, but as many landmarks as you can give or changes kind of like when you're giving driving directions, at the bottom of the hill, turn left, We do that regardless, but don't think about it in terms of the whole process. Mm-hmm. And it's important too, if you're gonna give driving directions for someone's Uber, be very specific about which door they need to go into, where they can be let off, what signs to look for. Just because there's an address doesn't always mean the building you're looking for is clear. right. being able to think about it from that aspect of. Let me do the route myself and maybe write down every single move and then I have this for anybody who needs it. If you all are up for it, I really recommend, getting whatever streaming service you have, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon Prime, you're gonna find shows and movies with audio description. Take a show that you've already seen and turn on the audio description close your eyes and see if you learn anything different or if the nuance changes just by listening

Meagan 26:16

That's such a great exercise. I'm absolutely gonna try that. I love that idea. That's excellent advice to break things down step by step and think about it. Yes. Through these century landmarks and move by move. this is, executive functioning skill that You probably have at a much higher level than quote unquote normal.

Janice 26:35

And it can be so frustrating. 'cause that's just how I think. Like even when I learned my college campus, I would look at, okay, at the third, sidewalk, I take a left and I follow the grass line on my right, and then I'll find three poles, and then I'll, cross the Cross the other way to get to the building after the third pole. with kids who are blind, giving the whole and then moving the whole into parts and then back to the whole can be very helpful. But if you don't have time to do all of that, starting with the parts is super helpful. For example, when I first started learning my college campus, I could get from my dorm to the student union and then my dorm to the building where I had most of my poli sci classes. But for a while I could not connect the student union to the poli sci classes. So I would go all the way back to the dorm so I could get over to the union. and then eventually I was able to learn that, but sometimes the shortest way for us isn't always the most efficient, especially in a new environment.

Meagan 27:46

That's such an important way to look at it. the shortest way is not the most efficient always. And I bet that's very true for, different forms of neurodiversity as well. I'm thinking of our clients with, with autism and with A DHD, these type of, kind of ways of thinking would help in that regard as well.

Janice 28:05

if you're used to just crossing in the, middle of the crosswalk or you walk across the grass to get somewhere, those are things that could be very dangerous to someone who can't see because our canes or dogs miss things. If you're walking in the grass, it's easier to miss holes and fall mm-hmm. Than if you were to walk on the sidewalk and go around. Figure that out as well as, crossing at the corner because we have to listen to our traffic cycles and we stand there for a while that freaks people out. They can't stand to see us just standing there and they think that they need to help us across the street. No, we're probably listening for traffic patterns. If you're worried, just ask are you in need of assistance? And if I say no, let it go. Mm-hmm. But, we have to listen when we're at a light, it's our parallel surge that says we can cross. But sometimes you've got those left hand turners and if we just go, when we think it's our parallel surge and we haven't, mapped it out, we could be in trouble.

Meagan 29:09

Yeah. that independence just looks different. I imagine, those that are newly visually impaired would have a hard time asking for that kind of help. And staying it as an advocacy Yes. Stance and a powerful thing to do rather than a limiting one.

Janice 29:26

Exactly, because a lot of times people who lose their vision later, or teens that are slowly losing their vision, they don't wanna be walking around with a cane. It makes 'em different. They don't wanna be different. They wanna blend in. there's that adjustment piece as well. Even if you're working to help normalize the use of a mobility device that is still counseling. And as a therapist, how do you work with clients in those moments of, I don't wanna be different, I don't wanna ask for help in this way. It depends on the client. sometimes I'll give them scenarios that are, exaggerated, but get my point across Like maybe a scenario about being out somewhere and missing an amazing opportunity if all they had to do was ask, where was room 1 0 2? and also being able to say, it's okay that you don't want to, Validating their emotions. I don't wanna wear my seatbelt. That's okay. It's okay that you don't want to, and it's okay that you don't like it, and yet this is what we have to do. Both can be true at the same time, right? There's a little bit of that radical acceptance The both and is my friend. I love the gray area, the AL spaces.

Meagan 30:41

Yeah, absolutely. That's a huge intervention that I can see being really helpful to clients in a variety of situations where they just don't want to, but they need to, to have that life that they're dreaming of.

Janice 30:53

Exactly. And then of course, the mirror activity where if this was your best friend and you saw them struggling like this, what would you think would be helpful for them? What would you wanna say to them and what makes you different?

Meagan 31:08

Yeah. It's really like helping clients identify what are those tools that you have to be the author of your own story And to control what you do have control over.

Janice 31:17

Yes. And that internal locus of control.

Meagan 31:20

I wanna bring us back to, these assumptions. You made a really important statement about how, as a blind person, you expect that for a lot of people you interact with, you might be the first blind person they meet. Mm-hmm. And I'm assuming as a, a therapist, those blind and works with a variety of clients, not just those with visual impairments. Mm-hmm. You will work with seeing clients too. What are some of the assumptions that you need to clear up for clients, who have never worked with a blind therapist before?

Janice 31:50

What is interesting is in my whole time of doing this, outside of the blindness realm, when I worked for the state is that the landscape has changed and less people care about that. And it was so refreshing for me. I've only had one, Client, it was a kiddo and their parent that brought them. I've only had that one person that questioned my ability to work with their child and, asked me was I really gonna charge 'em for the intake because it would've been rude if they walked out. So they stayed anyway. But, did I have to charge him because I should have told him that I was blind. Told them I was blind. Oh, only one. Wow. it's such a contrast from, when I was first out of grad school and looking for a job in the early two thousands, and coming across so many barriers. my resume said what it said, and get the interview, show up with a cane and automatically their mind is made up. I guess they humor me through the interview and just always in different settings, having to fight for my seat at the table, whether that's proving my competence or just keeping on getting degree after degree after degree because how do I stand out? most people in marginalized groups can tell you, you gotta work 50 billion times harder. even in blindness jobs in the voc rehab world, blind staff are under a lot of pressure to be what I call super blind things that cited people could get away with. Like if they needed to leave a group skills training early, and cleared it with their team, nobody would blink an eye. But if a blind person did. Their boss would call 'em in the office and be like, so you just showed those parents and kids that, oh, I'm blind. I can leave early. I don't have to help clean up. no, I'm not on 24 hours a day. And that can be a misconception too Yes, we're blind and we live in that space, but our lives don't have to center around that. And not every thing that we're doing needs to be scrutinized under that sort of microscope of whether that makes us, worthy or not. The way you speak, feels very optimistic to me and that you said, only one person has questioned your ability to provide services. And to me, that's one too many. But when you just get it, wave after wave after wave, or, why do you think you should be here? Why should we let you in? Or, oh, that's too hard. we don't have anybody that could help you with X, Y, or Z at this event, or, no, back in the day, we didn't put any of this stuff in electronic format, so you're just gonna have to. Try to follow along as best you can as we go through the material. I found another amazing, shift in this landscape. When I started, teaching at Texas Women's University, as a graduate teaching assistant, my very first class was in issues in parenting education nobody dropped my class that entire semester. people were excited to show up and I was so nervous on that first day, kind of like the kid that's like, is anybody gonna come to my party? What if no one comes or what if they don't come back? the first day I did my whole spiel like, yes, I am totally blind. I have this note taking device. called a braille note If you have questions, I'm so down to answer them. I want you to feel comfortable, I was just so used to having to justify and nobody asked me questions. I had this assignment for them where they had to get three children's books review them and tell me how they would use them if they were working with families in whatever sort of counseling or family educator position they were in. many of their book reviews were about acceptance and difference and grief I had to take class time and say how much I appreciated them and how I felt like for once I didn't have to fight for my seat at the table I'm giving this heartfelt thing, tears in my eyes and one of them just speaks up and said, yeah, but you're the instructor and we, we trust they're not gonna send in someone who's not qualified. Was deal was a big deal. Like, oh my God, if you only knew, like the fact that that wasn't a big deal. I felt like I made it finally.

Meagan 36:31

Yeah. That's so wonderful. And I'm so glad you're seeing this positive trend, we're moving in the right direction. Oh, we still have a way to go, but yes. Oh yeah. No doubt. We have far way to go.

Janice 36:43

Yeah. and with clients I still sometimes get a little, I don't wanna even say nervous 'cause it just, hasn't happened enough, or at least to my face enough. I'm not, pun intended, blind enough to think that it hasn't come up. And you know how you get those one hit wonders where they come for the one appointment and then you never Hear from them again. I would be lying if I said, none of that had to do with blindness. I don't know that, but I do make it a point I disclose. if you are someone with a disability, you get to choose when you disclose. If you disclose and how you disclose. For me, I like to do it upfront because I don't want you to waste your time or mine if this is gonna be a problem. I like to bring in humor and when I'm sitting across from them on the screen like this, I'll say, just a heads up, if it looks like I'm not looking at you, it's because I'm not looking at you. I'm looking in your direction, but I'm totally blind. if that brings up questions for you, I want you to know that this is a safe place to ask those questions.

Meagan 37:48

that disclosure, makes all the difference for potential clients and, acquaintances that interact with you. it makes it okay to ask those questions. Absolutely. there's a lot of power and humor this is amazing modeling for those struggling with disabilities or new to that world and don't know how to handle it and develop relationships with that.

Janice 38:07

I will say too, my parents were rock stars. They made sure I wasn't sheltered. my mom would say, you're gonna go out and fall off a bike and scrape your knee just like your brother. If you don't do that, we haven't had a good day. She would joke like that. they didn't pull punches with me either, but they would advocate fiercely to some points of embarrassment when you're a kid. But now it's like, wow, I'm so glad they did that. one of the things that happened was, when I was in kindergarten, first grade. I was supposed to be, what they called back in the eighties, mainstreamed, which is now inclusion. Mm-hmm. I was supposed to be, sent to the gen ed class for everything except for reading, because, I was doing braille but I wasn't, I was staying in the room for the kiddos who were visually impaired. So we had a Halloween carnival and you could buy tickets and put somebody in jail, you know, for like five minutes. My dad somehow finagled to put the principal behind bars he stood at The partition mm-hmm. Between us and her. And he just looked in there and went, my daughter Monday morning, regular classes. Got it. And I was so, mortified. but you know what, that is where my fire comes from. the fact that I will always stand up and fight for justice and, speak out when needed. all of my life, I've always seen my blindness as a blessing and a gift. That doesn't mean you have to, if you're not in that space, doesn't make you less than it makes you where you are and you get to go through your path and story for me. being two or three. people would ask me, oh, if they could fix your eyes, would you have surgery? And I would say, no. I mean, I'm doing okay. for me, I've had so many opportunities that led to some great things because of it, or at least that we're spurred on by it. Getting to go to different legislation, leadership programs, going to Capitol Hill, and talking about legislation that, affects people who are blind. having an internship in DC with the American Council of the Blind and even stuff as a kid. I find it such a great gift for me, and I wouldn't change it for anything.

Meagan 40:35

I love to hear you say that, and I'm so glad that's your experience and the perspective you hold now. for yourself and, anyone else listening that is not yet in that space and needs to know it's possible.

Janice 40:46

I will say too, when I was two or three, about same age, we were watching something on TV and it had Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles, and my mom was like, well, you know what? They're blind too. And I got so mad. I was like, no, they can't be blind. That's my thing. How will I be special?

Meagan 41:03

Right. I'm gonna take us back for a moment. You started off by explaining how in the beginning of the session, meeting with a new client, you are very transparent about the fact that you're blind. Mm-hmm. What, that may mean or how it would look different if at all, for clients starting therapy. I'm wondering if you can talk about any other things that you do as part of your therapy process, that may be a little bit different or that clients would need to know about because of your blind. Yeah. And it reminds me of something I was gonna say about clinicians as well, with clients, even though I can't see their body language, I know what's going on and I will call you out. luckily I get the clientele who, appreciate that. I can tell what's going on, by the way, things sound, the intensity of pauses, shifting, you can hear nonverbal cues. if you bend your head and put your hands over your face, it sounds different from when you're sitting up straight. There was this one couple, when I was seeing clients in person and one of the partners really didn't wanna do couples therapy. They were there to humor their partner. at one point I stopped whatever we were talking about and said, excuse me, I would really find it helpful if you wouldn't text right now. cause I'm not sure you're going to get much out of this session if you're texting while we're working here. Wow. I bet they were shocked.

Janice 42:32

Oh yeah. They were just like, how did she know? And I just know. Like that mama voice, like I know what you're doing. the nonverbal cues I can really pick up on so much of the subtle nuance Or, wow, you just heard that in the way I said hello, or whatever the case may be. on the technological side, I will say, Hey, if the video freezes or something, you're gonna have to let me know because I'm not gonna know. And if you don't want your camera on, feel free to turn it off because it's not doing me any favors and I have mine on for your benefit.

Meagan 43:09

Okay. and that's good to know too, that they can expect your camera to be on so they can see your facial expressions mm-hmm. And your movements, which is Yep. It's helpful. But it's okay if they wanna turn theirs off, especially for some folks who are dealing with body dysmorphia or eating sos Yes. Sometimes that's really great for them to be able to turn it off and have it not. hurt the therapeutic process from your side.

Janice 43:32

Exactly.

Meagan 43:33

That's so important. Those are great tips, and I'm sure these are some of the big things you bring in, as a clinical supervisor, training other therapists as well. absolutely. It, it's kinda like you offer that, you know, therapy 1 0 1 supervision of just making sure, you know, no harm is coming to clients and we're following all legal and ethical laws. But on top of that, you're also able to speak from this perspective and making sure that your supervisee's practice is truly, disability affirming and not stuck in this ableist sense. you mentioned this blindness is what makes you special and how, most marginalized communities have to work 50 times as hard. Yes. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more to the extra skill, and ability that you feel you have because of this that maybe sets you ahead of other clinicians.

Janice 44:22

I just like braced always. Maybe not like in a fighting stance, like, no, I have the tiger stuff, but, you know, just brace to have to do it, to have to sell myself, to sell my skills, to sell my brain. when I don't have to as much, it makes it so much easier coming at it from the other way. But I think as a clinician, it just makes you. Really listen and you're attuned to the process, not the content. Because a lot of times what people are bringing into therapy is not the real deal. that's not at the core of what they need to work on.

Meagan 45:01

It's almost like you get to, see what the people are not saying, because you're able to really listen for something that is maybe not gonna come through so clearly to someone who's focused on the body language or the visual expressions, you're actually hearing something. That Is not so obvious to others.

Janice 45:20

Yeah. Being someone who's blind and who talks in metaphors. I give gardening analogies and swimming analogies. I even give driving analogies one of the jokes I like to make is, you know what? You're in the driver's seat. Thank goodness. I'm just the navigator. 'cause you wouldn't want me driving your car. That's great. so just, and it also sort of, when we can be vulnerable with our clients. Obviously appropriate disclosure. When we can be vulnerable with our own humanity, it helps them to remember that we're people too. We have feelings too. And it helps them to want to open up more.

Meagan 45:58

Yeah, absolutely. And that takes a lot of bravery to show that side of ourselves as professionals, and yet it can make all the difference. To this clinical work of, the very subtle things that we have to pick up on as therapists, and in particular with your work doing EMDR therapy and helping clients through trauma. There's so much that is very subtle we need to pick up on. And I'm curious if you could speak a little bit to that and if there's any modifications that you do with trauma therapy to notice these shifts that clients will give us.

Janice 46:31

Yeah. so E-M-D-R-I love it. It, it was a game changer for me. obviously you don't have to do the eye movements. Francine Shapiro even said that if she'd had it all to do over again, she would not have called it eye movement, desensitization reprocessing. so we use tapping. So I'll have clients, I'll give them, all kinds of options. You can tap your knees, your collarbone, your temples, you can do the butterfly hug. The point is, is to, to have that bilateral stimulation where you're tapping one side, then the other side. that mimics what our brain does in REM sleep when it's processing, the subconscious junk of the day. during the bilateral stimulation, parts we're silent, but I can still hear the client, breathing or if they sniff or if they gasp in a certain way. and I know that when we get to the end of that set, we're probably gonna have something that came up to be able to say, okay, I think we need to bring what's called a resource in. a resource can be anything. A person, place, or thing real or fictitious, that helps embody the sensation that you need, whether that's comfort safety or confidence. I might say, let's do a resource. Let's either bring in, the figure of your grandma, or let's do calm, safe place and help you, get outta that flooding. But nine times outta 10, we don't have to do that because the brain does it during the bilateral stimulation. And then when we're doing our debrief, when I say, tell me what came up for you in this set. They're able to condense that down into a couple of sentences and then I can, perform if I need to, like an interweave where I might ask a little question. That prods them for the next set. Or I'll say something like, okay, why don't we hold in one hand your desire for X and hold in the other hand the familiarity of Y, and let's do the next round and see what happens. As you're letting both of those take the forefront.

Meagan 48:42

Yeah, you're picking up on so many of those small nuances that as a trauma therapist we need to look for. you mentioned the gasp or the change in breathing. The sniffles, the change in tone. all of those are things that, any trauma therapist trained the MDR should look for. I think because of the way you live your daily life, noticing so many subtle things, like the change of the carpet when you're walking or The sound of the traffic light and picking up on the patterns. I wonder if you feel like that gives you an edge to pick up on those even easier? to me it makes it seem like you're especially well qualified, as an MDR therapist because you're naturally attuned to these things

Janice 49:22

I think you said it right there. It's a natural attunement. It's not. something where, you lose one sense and all the rest take over. It's just your brain. in any situation you find yourself in, it adapts. Mm-hmm. And it reroute certain things to other channels so that you can get the information. And 70% of your world comes from your visual channel. So when you don't have that, your brain is really having to adapt in ways that I can't even fathom. I'd probably miss some things in the world, but I don't feel like, I only have 30% of my capacity to understand and to know. Certain things do get sensory overload for me and overstimulation, like going into, Best Buy if you go into Best Buy, a lot of times, like all the TVs and all the radios are gonna be on at once. And some people can tune that out. Uhuh, that just floods me to no end. 'cause my brain's trying to pick up every one of those things, even though none of them matter, like none of them are important to me. Or if you're at a restaurant and it's so loud that you can barely hear yourself placing your order. to me that is very flooding. And I know for people with a DHD, it's kind of the same sort of sensory overload. So if we think about it that way, it's not That things are overcompensating. our brain has learned to adapt. And with those adaptations come the, I don't wanna say limitations, but the other side of it of, we're gonna have to give a little to get a little

Meagan 51:02

Right. And I think we speak about that or we try to at her time about neurodiversity as well as, yes, your brain is just working differently here. sometimes it's hard because the world isn't built for a brain that works this way. and yet that doesn't mean that these things can also be a superpower.

Janice 51:20

Yeah, absolutely. Because a lot of the things that get in our way, the systems could be modified, they could be built differently, there could be better public transportation. a lot of things that are frustrations or barriers. Are not because of the blindness or the disability.

Meagan 51:42

What are some of the things systemically that if you could wave a magic wand you would change about our society that would make it easier?

Janice 51:50

a situation I ran across last week where I needed to have something notarized and I used an online notary and they didn't have a way for me to either type in my name or click a box they were like, you have to use a mouse and you have to draw. And I'm like, well, I'm blind. I can't do that. What's the accommodation? There isn't one. Can I get my spouse? Can they be there and do the thing? No, you have to use your finger. And I'm blind. Oh, okay. Well you still have to do your finger and draw with the mouth just ridiculousness. It doesn't make sense. Like, go off your script and help me. things like that don't have either an alternative way of accessing or at least some sort of plan. even if you don't have the answer right away, to be able to say, you know what? We want you to be able to take advantage of our services. We're gonna figure this out for you. Or we're gonna just under the table, we're gonna take this rule away. 'cause it, it doesn't make sense anyway.

Meagan 52:48

Right. So just that general willingness for organizations and systems to be more helpful and more flexible. We started our talk today about the importance of flexibility Yes. It sounds like that's what it boils down to.

Janice 53:02

Yes. I think public transportation, there's a lot to be desired, especially. Here in Texas. for me, it's just life and I deal with it. But then there are times, if I didn't have a partner, I would have to coordinate with a grocery store, for example. I mean, now we could use Instacart, but a lot of people who are buying don't have the money for stuff like that. so you have to coordinate with the store and, hey, do you have a shopper assistant that could, walk with me on Saturday at 10 o'clock so I can get my groceries. And you have so much scheduling, coordination to do when you can't see whether it's to get a ride, whether it's to plan for an Uber, whether it's to stand at a bus stop for an hour. I used to have to get up and get a bus at. Five 30 in the morning just to get to work 25 minutes down the road and be there by seven 30. that's just ridiculous. we can do better. I know people have commutes, but I shouldn't have had that commute.

Meagan 54:05

There's so much grief in that There needs to be that space for validation that it shouldn't be this hard and we need to keep speaking out To make positive change. it would help everybody. the world could be better all around if these changes were made.

Janice 54:18

Exactly. to my point about, disability and finances it is still a statistic that 70% of people who are visually impaired or unemployed. Or grossly underemployed. So we just need to do better. Yeah. We need to do better at meeting people where they are getting to know them before making that judgment. if you think about it, those unconscious biases are really what can perpetuate any sort of ism.

Meagan 54:48

the financial piece also tends to cause people to be trapped in bad and traumatic situations. When you look at it through the mental health lens, really shows just how much trauma is probably interlaced with, disability. I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit. How often you see. those with blindness or related disabilities coming in with PTSD or trauma as well?

Janice 55:14

Yeah, there are the ones who come in with PTSD because of the disability, but there are also people that come in with PTSD because of some sort of systemic trauma they got fired for something that was beyond their ability to control or to help and could have been avoided. people not watching and maybe they got hit by a car, things like that. but yeah, there's a lot of trauma in that and a lot of trauma from a family systems lens, from something that's so unintentional. like I was saying earlier, if someone who is intensively trained. On these skills and they come home and things haven't changed in the home, and then they backslide and regress and lose all of their training and so they can't move forward and, join an employment lifestyle that causes trauma because they can feel trapped with their well-intentioned family.

Meagan 56:15

It's so complex. The layers of trauma that can be Occurring simultaneously.

Janice 56:21

And maybe the trauma has nothing to do with the disability, but the disability has everything to do with why they can't get out or make that change because there's some sort of barrier that If they didn't have that disability, would give them an edge to move forward.

Meagan 56:37

And that's where your work as a therapist comes in, both from your personal and professional lived experience to help clients through that grieving and validation process. Through just battling systemic issues and systemic oppressions Mental health counseling can touch all of those

Janice 56:53

And sometimes counseling is helping someone fill out a college application. Don't underestimate what you're doing with these clients or say, oh, well that's not in my therapy scope, because yes it is. You're helping them with their interdependence. The whole individualistic pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Like that's a, not realistic, it's not a thing, it's not cool. But independence is about knowing. When to ask for help and how to be self-sufficient at the same time. And for that it's interdependence. as therapists, if we need to help someone get resources, like, information about a food bank helping with a job application or getting their college application filled out. then by all means that is medically necessary.

Meagan 57:45

Therapy is a safe place to come in and ask for help on any task, no matter how seemingly small. And that's where the empowerment comes in.

Janice 57:52

I've spent whole sessions with people, who lost their vision on, okay, so what are the ways that I can tell when meet is done and when do I, I don't know, pour a drink without going over and spilling. Those things help people regain so much of their independence back and that interdependence of these are things I was able to do before. I can still do them. And pretty much the same way with a few adaptations.

Meagan 58:21

Yeah. There's nothing too small. We encourage you to reach out no matter how silly it is. that is what comes up so often that self judgment, that this is too ridiculous, this is too small to ask for help for.

Janice 58:32

Or, oh, this is only just me. I guarantee you there's nothing in this world that's ever just you. Maybe your circumstance is a just you or the way that you think about it. But we are all humans in this. Boat of struggle and we all get it. That's part of self-compassion is knowing that, hey, if I reach out because I'm struggling, even if you've never been blind before or never had cancer before, you can still meet me somewhere in your experience and help me through this.

Meagan 59:07

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Janice, for Coming on to speak today and sharing so much Of your personal experience. I know that's gonna resonate with so many people, and I just wanna give you an opportunity to say, for someone who's listening today and really relates to what we've been talking about and maybe wants to reach out to start working with you, maybe they're newly disabled, or going through chronic illness or just really resonate with your vibe and your humor mm-hmm. can you tell them what you want them to know about reaching out and taking those first steps?

Janice 59:38

Well, first and foremost, you never have to fight for your seat at the table. Everybody's welcome. Everybody's story matters. I would really love to be on this part of your journey and helping to shape your story with you. It takes courage to reach out and please know that I know that, and I don't take it lightly. it takes so much trust to be vulnerable, nobody here comes from a place of judgment. we've all got our own stuff and insecurities too. we're gonna meet you with so much compassion, so much kindness, and just enough swift kick in the pants to help you gain momentum and move forward.

Meagan 1:00:22

Well said. I love that. Janice, If you would like to reach out to work with Janice as a client, or if you are a therapist in need of a supervisee who needs the type of expertise and guidance that Dr. Janice here offers, please reach out to us as well. We have all of our links in the show notes.

Janice 1:00:39

And leave comments if there are questions that you want more, clarification on, or things that you want me to unpack more of, please let me know. And if you're a therapist who just wants some peer consultation and maybe to ask questions for your own practice, please reach out.

Meagan 1:00:57

Thanks Janice.