Meagan: 0:28

welcome Erin to her time to talk. We are so excited to have you on the podcast and really excited to have you as part of the her time therapy team. You have officially joined us, as a practicum student right now, but you bring a wealth of background and skillset in, sex education and intimacy coaching, One of the big things we're gonna talk about today, in addition to getting to know you a little bit better and learn more about what you bring to our clients and all that you have to offer. I wanna give you the chance to start out by introducing yourself to our listeners and tell us a little bit about what drew you to the field of therapy and to this graduate program that you're in right now in general.

Erin: 1:10

Yes. So it feels like a really long and windy story, but it's not so windy when I really look at it. my first graduate degree is in forensic sexology, and when I was on that path, I really thought I'd be working in a different space. I had, a PhD in forensic psychology on my mind and was really looking at. Diving much deeper into what the legal system calls Deviant behavior. I was really interested in that and that was where my path was. But as a poor graduate student, and this was in the early two thousands to age myself a little bit for folks I came home and, you know,'cause I was poor. Like you're just. Devastated by school loans after grad school. I did my graduate work in Australia, came home, didn't have any money, had to move back in with my parents. I ended up working in the fields more directly related with the forensic side of things. Left that job after six months'cause it's kind of a nightmare. And I was working at a Juvenile Detention Center that was for profit. So there's some real pieces around what I was passionate about that didn't actually align with who I was as a human being. and my values, my morals, I. Then moved to actually Planned Parenthood of all places which feels like a really big shift. But I ended up, running their education programs in southwestern Colorado and Northern New Mexico and managing all of that. And this was a time when we were able to teach sex ed in the schools, which always feels like it was a major, major fight. But it's definitely changed since I was involved. And from that space, I really discovered my love of positive sex education and that just took off. I left Planned Parenthood and found spaces where women were gathering and talking about sex in really defined ways. We were really digging into things That was new because everything was about consequences, right? Consequences of any sort of sexual behavior. Oh, you could get pregnant. Oh, you could get STIs. I was raised in the eighties. The biggest fear for us was you will get HIV and die. And a lot of that has really shifted. On this path of sex positive education that I was doing. I had lots of opportunities and exposure, and I found that I wanted to do this work full-time by myself. I wanted to get out of some of the spaces that. Told me what I was supposed to do, like how I was supposed to approach it. Oh, you can't answer those questions. If students are talking to you about this, you can't engage with that. I opened my own business as a result of that. I have been officially practicing in my own business as a sex coach, and educator since 2019, but was doing work unofficially before then. part of that work has been working with teens in what I would say like an alternative high school space. And students who are really struggling with all sorts of systemic issues. I'm just one resource that comes in to help shore them up. I realized, anybody who's working with these youth, they have to be a therapist. Like you have to have the whole package because they need us to have the whole package. And so I finally, was like, all right, it's time. And I went and found Adams their program, which is brilliant You're an alum, so that's something that we share, which is lovely. So here I am in my practicum. loving the opportunities and looking at how to merge the sex coaching and intimacy work into therapy.

Meagan: 4:42

As someone who grew up as a young girl in Northern New Mexico and went to college in Colorado, thank you for your work with Planned Parenthood, because that organization has saved the lives of so many women. I've seen for myself and for a lot of my girlfriends, this has made all the difference in being able to. Make choices about their own body and plan their future and get an education So that's very important work and a big milestone in your journey that has helped you get here.

Erin: 5:09

Yes. I'm incredibly grateful for that opportunity It's unfortunate to watch some of those resources disappear. for example, the Planned Parenthood clinic that's been here for decades in Durango closed last September. it's been a full year that it hasn't been open. thousands of people that don't get resources. That Planned Parenthood had people that came from surrounding states because it was the closest resource to them. And so it feels more important now to be having these conversations and creating community around sex and intimacy so that we are. Able to talk to each other, reach out ask for help and find resources through that community. that feels really important at this time.

Meagan: 5:50

Yeah, absolutely. And I know we could go off on that for a long time and maybe we will do a whole other episode on Planned Parenthood and the effects of Those closing down right now because it is very significant and Drastically impacting our clients we are a practice who, serve women in the mental health space and reproductive care is fundamentally linked to mental health and overall wellbeing. Yes. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so excited to have you and our team bringing this experience as a sex coach because you can merge the mental health with that fundamental education, women need that education about their own bodies They have to learn how to advocate and how to find these resources even when they're scarce. Yes. I would love to hear a little bit more about, what drew you to working in this specific field. why are you passionate about this area?

Erin: 6:40

Because it wasn't my intention. I think back to when I was a young woman. I wanted to be the first female president, which I'm sad to say is still possible. I thought I was gonna be in a different space. a big chunk of the passion comes from that forensic sexology program I was in. we were the first cohort to go through the master's level program, at Curtin University in Western Australia. they were, at the forefront, of sexology and education as well as therapy. leading the charge for a number of decades. And so when I got there and I was enmeshed in the program, we were doing what was. seen as cutting edge stuff. We were sitting down and talking and running groups with transgender folks, which back then there weren't that many. We were really looking at the whole person, and the systems that influence that person's life. things like. Health and mental health and how sex impacts that, It sparked something in me, turned something loose a little bit. I ran co-led and helped manage a fem sex calm is what we called it in San Francisco. this is based on the program that was run at both Berkeley and Brown called Fem Sex. it was all about female pleasure. So like orgasms and looking at your vulva and all of these things and participating in that program. Then co-facilitating several iterations. I just was like, we can do so much more. Part of that group practice was to use gender neutral language and again, this was pushing the envelope and it's San Francisco so it makes sense. To sit in a group and not use any gendered pronouns for 15 weeks, three hours every week. was intensive work. the change that you could see in participants was so significant. It was this huge leap forward and I was like, I wanna be enmeshed in this work. How can I create spaces and learning around this? I want kids to be in classrooms or settings where they're learning that their body isn't shameful. That having crushes butterflies and being sexually curious is not a bad thing. That masturbation is not a bad thing, I am motivated and passionate about these topics and once I started, I couldn't stop I want people to see what I see, I wanna open the world. I want people to feel like there's no more hurdles to their sexual pleasure. There's nothing in their way to ask for their desires, and I'm happy to say that there's a lot more conversation around this. The fact that you have A private practice that is solely focused on helping women that you're openly talking about the patriarchy on your homepage. I'm like, Megan. Yes. Because those are systems, right? The patriarchy is one certainly, but those systems directly impact sexual pleasure and directly impact women specifically. we're leaning into the women in this space,'cause we're gonna end up talking about the group and things like that. But certainly within the queer space, and arguably they are so much further ahead, right? Mm-hmm. because some of the forced oppression, boxes people in and they come together in community and they're able to be vulnerable. They build their own safe spaces and have these conversations. I think that's something that's missing very often. I was having this thought earlier of of course, we talk about sex with our girlfriends. we get together and talk about our sexual lives, but we don't often do that with an expert in the room, Someone who can answer questions, someone who can maybe. Push a little bit and be like, huh, where do you think that comes from? And then have them talk about it and discover some more or question maybe how they were raised, or question, well, why do I do it that way? Or Why am I not asking for what I want?

Meagan: 10:39

Women in particular run into a lot of barriers and challenges Learning about themselves, their own body, figuring out how to ask for what they want, and even figuring out what it is that they want to ask for, I wonder if we could unpack that for a minute and, explore from your perspective and your experience. What are the major roadblocks for women Increasing their sexual pleasure and knowing themselves, knowing what to ask for and how to get it.

Erin: 11:03

Yeah, there's many. individuals will have different experiences but most often I see. Folks who have no connection to their actual physical body. And by that I mean genitals. And I'm gonna use all sorts of language on here that people are gonna be like, oh, she used the word genitals. I hate that word. I'm like, I know.

Meagan: 11:23

Um, that's part of the point.

Erin: 11:24

That's Yes. I want you to hear it and I want you to sit with it. And I know you don't wanna embrace it, but. Slang can be really problematic. sometimes using more medical or science-based language is important. I'm all for reclaiming though, so if you have words that you feel really empowered by, that is part of the conversation as well. There are so many folks that Can't talk about their genitals, don't have names for their genitals, or they're using language that was given to them or taught to them as a young child, and they're carrying that into their adulthood. they don't know what their genitals look like. They've never looked at their vulva. They don't touch it Unless they have to. And that is a significant disconnect, in the therapy space, we talk often about people who live intellectually. talking from this intellectual space and not connecting to their heart self. I would take it that next step further maybe they're in their heart space, but they are nowhere near their genitals, I do work to bridge that gap I want you to look at your vulva. And that's huge for people. There's so much. I think about pubic hair standards, cleanliness standards. There's all these expectations of how women's bodies are supposed to look, right? And then we can go deeply into body image, but specifically around the genitals, this expectation. And imagine if you can't meet that expectation, then you're not gonna look, you're not gonna touch, you're not gonna interact. That makes me sad. It makes my heart heavy, and so I absolutely wanna build community and bring people to a space where they can say I feel shame. I feel guilt, How I was raised, hold me. I was never supposed to touch myself. Masturbation wrong. We talked about the patriarchy. We can talk about religion, social norms and family norms. How all those impact how we see ourselves. I think about women who see their mothers or grandmothers put their bodies down. Oh, I'm so ugly. Oh, I'm so fat. nobody could love this. I'm not deserving. And so that trickles down. we have that generational impact on, I've never seen anybody love their body much less talk about their genitals in a positive way. one of my favorite activities to do is vulva art. There's all different. ways that people can do this. But one of my favorite is there's a whole kit you can purchase, but you can also make your own like natural dyes and you roll it onto your vulva and then you sit on a piece of paper, Wow. Which is so cool. And even just something as simple as that, To be able to see it in art I think really helps. Mm-hmm. And so I do a lot of that. what we might call art therapy to a certain extent it's maybe easier to look at something that is artistic, Rather than the reality of what we have. and so that's a nice bridge into connecting. And when we connect with our bodies and we start to realize that it's not ugly or disgusting, then it's empowering and oh, this is pleasurable, and oh wait, I have control over this and I can connect with it, Only enhances then any sort of pleasure that we can have. And if we're partnered, being able to share our body with our partners and say, Hey, I'm proud of this. I love how it looks. I love how it smells. This is me and it's amazing. Only then provides again, like an empowered person standing in front of another person saying, heck yeah, I wanna share my body with you. That's really, really powerful.

Meagan: 15:04

That's a beautiful moment and something to strive to that feeling of empowerment and making the choice to share your body with someone. In all of this, I'm hearing that there's so much work women need to go through before a lot of us can ever get to that place. To experience that moment, whether it's, shame and cultural messaging coming from family religion Social media and these body standards, there's a million places where we get taught what to think about our body and what to avoid and what to be shameful about. And it's a process of learning. What is the messages we as a specific individual have been taught and exposed to, and how do we unlearn that? Before we can actually drop down into our body, embrace it, and then take that next step with someone else.

Erin: 15:50

Yes. And I think. What gets confusing or feels overwhelming is that these are all things we women have to do to exist from day to day. I'm asking them to throw in the sexual component, I'm asking them to bring that into the room. I often use the analogy of like, our sex lives or our sexual selves are in a box and they're in the top of the closet tucked way back in the corner, and we only bring it out when there's something wrong with it. I am very much about, let's get proactive. Let's talk about this before things get broken or when there's a problem, Let's engage with it connect with it embrace it and feel empowered in it. it's been really interesting in my journey in offering services is that very often I have therapists who refer clients to me. they, as therapists can't offer these services, they're like, I actually don't know enough about sex, or, I don't know enough about physiology to explain or help with this, or it's something they feel themselves really uncomfortable with. And so many of my clients are in therapy with a therapist, but they're also seeing me. For education and that kind of coaching work. And I'm really excited about becoming a clinician who can provide both. And then you don't have to refer out.

Meagan: 17:02

It's so needed. and like you said, this process of unlearning a lot of the messaging that we've been taught as women and living in this patriarchal world, that's not built for us. that's part of the process of what we do in therapy anyway. At least the type of feminist therapy we offer here her time. You're adding this additional sexual component that. Is so critical, for a lot of different factors of our life. But I love the way that you talked about it in terms of, so we only take this out when something's broken or when we're not thinking this is working. Right. And without some education and exploration I think you might not even know when something is not going right. we look at some of the rates of, reproductive cancers like ovarian cancer and things that are, very deadly to women because we just are disconnected and ignored that part of ourselves. all of this work that you're talking about is, so critical to actually enjoying our life and bringing in pleasure. it's. literally lifesaving to be in physical relationship with your own body and understand how it's supposed to work.

Erin: 18:04

Yeah, that brings up, a whole nother side of this when we're talking about women advocating for themselves. And I have a bone to pick with the medical community and health institutions. There is not a lot of great care for women. there's an undercurrent. Messaging that says women are supposed to suck it up and just deal with it, that we're supposed to experience pain. That's just part of being a woman. And I wanna say clearly it is not, and if you are physically in pain, whether it's during your period or when you're having sex, Reach out, advocate for yourself. Finding therapy and connecting with a therapist who can help you build skills to advocate. I am a well-versed woman in this, right? I talk about sex, I talk about bodies. I know my body. I am embedded in this work, and it took me five years. To be finally heard about what I knew were symptoms of perimenopause. So if someone like me is struggling within the medical community, and I live in a rural part of the state, we have a lot of clients who live in rural parts of Colorado, how are we supposed to overcome these hurdles? If someone like me can't, I've had to fight tooth and nail and actually couldn't find care in my community and had to go to an online medical community, I'm frustrated with it. It makes me angry and I think part of having these conversations is that someone might listen to this and be like, oh wait. I'm angry too, and this isn't okay. how can I help myself or how can I help my friend? Or who should I talk about this too. How can I make connection? And that I think is also the power of women, We can gather in community, we can connect in spaces like this talk about the things that are not working, unlearn that shame, and really find our power and our sexual pleasure.

Meagan: 19:59

And we've gotta be able to learn how to advocate for ourselves across different domains. The medical domain in particular. since we're talking about the importance of women sharing their story, I'll add one of mine, I think it's a good example of women having to fight for our pain to be taken seriously and to know when it's the type of pain that's not normal. I had a situation a couple of years ago where very suddenly I had menstrual cramps come on so strongly that I actually passed out. Oh my God. Full on lost consciousness because of that level of pain. My husband was luckily at home, found me, got me conscious and ended up taking me to the emergency room. And of course, you know, on par with emergency rooms, I was there for many hours. But once I finally got seen. I remember nurses were great. They were there taking care of me and supporting me, but the physician on call was a male physician who I very distinctly remember walking into the medical room, taking a look at my chart to see why I was there, and just turning around and walking back out. Never even spoke to me. I ended up having ultrasounds and surgery because there was something wrong that needed to be taken seriously. But I was in the hospital and literally had the pain dismissed to the point of just walked right back outta the room. So unreal.

Erin: 21:16

This is what

Meagan: 21:17

we're talking about.

Erin: 21:18

Yes. thank you for sharing. Every time I sit down and have a conversation with a woman, we all have stories to tell. We all have these stories to share about instances when we've been dismissed, symptoms that have been passed over or labeled with something different. When we gather, when we talk together, when we have this shared conversation, we're not alone, we can change and shift things. ideally, my intellectual self is like, I have to change the world and we're gonna tear this all down and make it better. and then the pragmatic part of myself pops in and is like, yeah, you're gonna do this one person at a time. You're gonna sit in community with people when you can, where you can have conversations like this. That is. Maybe more important than changing the world, right?

Meagan: 22:09

Mm-hmm.

Erin: 22:10

and so sometimes I have to reign myself back in. That's fair.

Meagan: 22:14

Yeah. And change happens slowly and it happens one person at a time. But to your point, it's the power and the magic happens when women come together. To share stories and to connect and to learn that you're not crazy, you're not alone. This level of pain and passing out when you have cramps is not normal. you can ask for what you want and not be ashamed. You're not the only one wanting to do so. you, are developing a really fantastic, exciting group. Too, welcome women together to do this very thing that we've been talking about. So can you tell me more about the group that you have planned that you are launching?

Erin: 22:48

Yes. So it's a women's sexual pleasure and intimacy group. we're using the term intimacy very intentionally reaching for people who maybe aren't as comfortable in the language that I'm in. for me, it's all about exploring sexual pleasure and I'm very comfortable in that space. there are lots of people who are not so comfortable in that space, and I want you to take a chance, intimacy is a way to talk about that. language and words matter. when I talk about it being a women's support group for intimacy and pleasure, that's what I'm talking about we're gonna start gently, we're gonna be meeting people where they're at. I feel like that's a really important element to say We are often silenced as women when it comes to expressing our needs and sexual desires. And so it can feel overwhelming and really scary to join a group and be like, oh my gosh, are we gonna start talking about things like on day one? And granted, I'll probably use language on day one. I'm gonna say genitals and I'll say vulva. One of the goals of the group is to explore pleasure, And intimacy in terms of what are the benefits of this? So physical benefits, emotional benefits and the emphasis won't be on orgasms, I am not orgasm centric. Like, that's not what we're here to talk about. Although for some folks, that's all they know so when I say pleasure, it's much, much bigger than orgasm. that'll be an interesting, exploration that we're gonna start with what does pleasure look like when we're not just talking about orgasms. And that is a really lovely introduction and Gets us into some of the deeper topics. Another goal, as an educator, and a coach, I really want people to know how their bodies work. We're gonna talk about your sexual body like, how does it function? What are all the different parts and what do they do? And learning a little bit more about that and. When did you have your last sex ed class was it taught by your gym teacher in fifth grade? we're gonna brush up on some of those pieces.

Meagan: 24:43

Yeah that's such a critical component. this education piece, and I feel like people are going to hear this and be like, oh God, sex ed class in fifth grade was horrible. Why would I sign up for that? we wanna emphasize here, can you imagine what it would be like if you had sex ed? As an adult. With other women in the room who were all for leaning into the variety of pleasure you can have through this kind of experience as well as connecting with your body and a really like ful good way rather than this shameful way.

Erin: 25:14

Yes.

Meagan: 25:15

That would be a different experience.

Erin: 25:17

It's fun sex ed. I had mentioned the vulva art. These are all optional encouraging things I'm gonna talk to folks about who are participating I do want you to do some of this stuff, and if you can't, that's okay. It's about you're on a journey. and lean in a little bit and this can be really fun. And so yeah, it is from a positive space, everything that I work from is this sex positive lens. It's not about consequences. I feel like consequences is such a loaded word, but it really is what sex ed is taught on. It's don't get pregnant when you don't wanna get pregnant and don't get STIs. I can answer those questions if they come up, but that's not what we're gonna talk about. And so it really is all about enhancing whatever you've got going on currently and maybe unpacking some of the stuff that's not working. We are gonna sit down and explore that shame and that guilt that isn't ours, but that is foisted upon us as women. and really looking at where those negative emotions come from, and unlearning some of the stuff that we've been told. To do or to experience or how we have to be in order to be sexual beings. and I think that's a really important component of the group is that we will spend some time looking at how we can reclaim spaces, how we can reclaim norms, how we can reclaim expectations and take up more space. Yeah, my desire looks like this and I want to do this to meet it. We are forced as women into really, really small spaces and told just don't talk about it. I don't wanna hear about it.

Meagan: 26:51

Women are so often in so many domains of life. this one included is your needs are too much. Your needs are inconvenience. Your desire is inconvenient, so don't bring it up. Don't complain. And this is the antithesis of that messaging.

Erin: 27:07

Yes. We need to look at it. uncover it. And then we get to reframe it and reclaim it and make it empowering for ourselves as opposed to something we're doing for someone else or to show up an expectation for society or whoever.

Meagan: 27:22

Yeah.

Erin: 27:23

Yeah,

Meagan: 27:23

absolutely. I wanna emphasize here too, this is not about. Never having a good sex ed class or, not being smart enough to figure this out on your own. I can even share a little story from when I was a teacher. I taught a lot of the AP English courses where I helped, seniors apply to colleges and, move on to the next phase of their life. I remember, A student of mine who was around 18, about to graduate and go to college, had multiple, Ivy League acceptances, top of her class, super smart individual. she disclosed to me one day miss, I started my period and I need some products. can you help me? And also, I have no idea why I get a period. Would you mind explaining it to me? at this point we had a great relationship and I had her for multiple years in classes. it's not a common thing to ask your English teacher about that. we're talking about Shakespeare, but things come up and it was just so shocking to me that this young woman who is. So smart, so educated already. Literally didn't even know why her own body went through the cycle of having a period. Yeah. So this is not about being stupid, it's not about not being exposed to the right things. It is literally about this society is built to keep you misinformed.

Erin: 28:39

Yes. And

Meagan: 28:40

built to make you not embrace your own desire or have a relationship with your own sexuality. this group is about. Facing that reality without judgment.

Erin: 28:50

I feel like there's extremes in this country. people don't have space to do this learning. They don't have safe space to be vulnerable. you can't even get on Google and search for information because so much of it is like, can I trust this information? where is this coming from? We are living at these extremes of either you know or you don't know, and everything in between is just full of misinformation. also that expectation, again, as a woman, you're not supposed to have sexual pleasure, and if you have desires and needs, you just need to be quiet about it. we see that language and that dichotomy when we're talking about things like labeling women as sluts versus, Oh, she's frigid. And so there's this extreme and if you are empowered in any way, you're gonna be much further down here. And it's scary, For the people who are like, she knows what she's talking about. She's comfortable in her body. And it is important to recognize that there are a lot of systems in place that are trying to keep this quiet, keep it taboo, And keep people down. And we're not gonna allow for that. what I'm trying to build and create, certainly with this group is that space in between. Come and learn without judgment. Come and explore. Come and ask questions. Come and talk about, the shared experiences or the lived experiences of this negative thing that I experienced. This happened to a friend of mine, and building, a room full of voices. exposes that, we're not alone. This is a similar experience. And it is not unusual, to not have information about our bodies.

Meagan: 30:23

That's so critical. And I'm wondering logistically for anyone who is, wanting to join this group, but not sure if they are. Gonna fit in the group. Do you need to have a partner? Do you need to be in a heterosexual relationship? What are the boundaries here?

Erin: 30:38

you do not need to be partnered, you do not need to be in a heterosexual relationship. when I define sex with people, I'm like, it's a big umbrella and there's all sorts of stuff underneath it. As a matter of fact, I include holding hands under my sex umbrella. So we'll talk a little bit about what that looks like and do some defining of what is sex, what does sex mean to you? the group is really open to anybody who's curious about these things. We'll have a signup form and that might help people understand a little bit more. Folks can reach out through her time therapy and learn about little bit more.

Meagan: 31:07

I'll put all the links to the signup forms in the show notes as well as our website link and Erin's contact information all of that information is there for you, as people are. Hearing about this amazing space you're creating. They still may be a little bit hesitant, like this feels like a lot, this is a little bit scary. I may be a little bit more shy and I don't wanna talk about this outwardly yet. What would you say to those folks? Are you available to work with them one-on-one to ease them into talking about this before they join a group? Or what are their options if they're just feeling a little nervous about joining?

Erin: 31:41

Yeah, I am available to meet with clients individually. I'd really encourage folks to reach out through her time therapy and do, sessions with me I think that might be a more appropriate space for these conversations, especially if you're feeling vulnerable or concerned about anything. Being able to meet with me ahead of time or while the group's running, because we'll have more groups in the future. This isn't gonna be a one-off. If you feel even a little bit like, I think I could do this, everybody's allowed to show up how they show up in the space. The expectation isn't that you have to talk every time, it's encouraged. We'd love to hear from you. And also recognizing it can feel nerve wracking. The group will be. measured, it's not gonna be full on. we are gonna build the space together. even though I have plans, that doesn't mean that we'll get into them in that same way. That's what I love about group work, the lived experience of the folks participating is what builds the space. I want folks to lean in, feel a little bit challenged and certainly reach out and get some more information. Before you decide it's not for you.

Meagan: 32:44

Absolutely. Yeah. And every group is a little bit different. We have a grief group. We've ran multiple times at her time, and we've had people repeat the group with new members, they have shared that the experience is different every time, even though. Some of the topics are similar, so as we, launched this group for the first time, it is important for people to know if you miss it this time, or maybe you're listening to this episode, a couple months or years after it's been published, reach out because we probably have a new one starting soon. And even if you're not. Quite ready for that group and to be that vulnerable. You're welcome to work with Erin one-on-one and start this process of unlearning harmful narratives and embracing your body and your pleasure more. A free consultation is a really good way to start

Erin: 33:29

yes, absolutely. I wanna be flexible and hold space again for people who are there. I love doing this work. I really enjoy facilitating groups and so I'm really looking forward to it

Meagan: 33:39

alright, reach out to us. We hope this, episode was educational, informative. Maybe empowering and inspiring we look forward to doing more episodes around this topic. So if there's also questions that you have as a listener, that you want Erin to answer and go into deeper, let us know and we'll record more episodes around women's sexual health and wellness.